MJ - basketball magician or overhyped egoist?

[Civilis]

There was an idea lately to create a separate thread for the "one and only" Michael Jordan and his impact on the modern-day world basketball :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/Jeffas/jordan_dunk_gm6201.jpg

Was "His Airness" a unique basketball talent, a sports magician whose phenomenal athletic abilities attracted crowds to watch unforgettable basketball performances? Many people would probably agree that, if not for MJ phenomenon, basketball nowadays would not be such a popular sport worldwide, and he will remain the icon for our sport for the years to come.

Or was "His Airness" the biggest individualist the world basketball has ever seen who allowed himself throw 40 shots per game with quite poor shot percentage (hardly reached 50 pecent in field goal attempts and for most of his career was way below 30 percent in 3 point attempts)? He was not a kind of player who made teammates around him look better, but rather needed the ones like Pippen or Rodman to do the "black work on court" for "his majesty" to shine.

Wasn't it the example of "his Airness" that led to the emergence of lots of individualist "stars" whose play is so predictable and boring to watch (except the athletic dunks for the pop-corn eating masses), and what has ruined the quality of NBA in the eyes of many? Didn't the brand and myth of MJ become stronger than the basketball player himself?

I know it is a controversial discussion, but I believe it is worth bringing up. :)

[HIGHLANDER]

I think he was the best ever basketball player.
Yes perhaps his shooting percentage was not the greatest but he always hit the big shots, when it most mattered. He was a leader that his team mates followed, and never questioned. He also brought other qualities to the team such as passing and defense.
I think he has the championship medals to prove it.

As far as todays players are concerned, it's not his fault that they all want to try and jump the highest and as a result they maybe forgot slightly about the fundamentals.

To finish off, he had such a will to win and leadership qualities which was all capped off by respect, to be the best ever player to grace the NBA courts.:cool:

[Civilis]

I respect MJ's uniqueness as an extraordinary athlete, but e.g. when Chicago was playing against Phoenix in finals back then, I was always supporting Charles Barkley who was a better contributor to the team. The irony of destiny, however, he never got an NBA championship ring...

[mktackabery]

MJ exhibits the best and the worst of U.S. basketball - individualism, will to win, where one person can go if all they do is live, breathe, and will themselves to be the best basketball player in the world. But MJ is the reason basketball is barely a team sport in this country too. You can't deny the talent or the results. There is probably no right answer to this.

I guess it depends upon what you think is more important, being a teammate or being the best. High flyers have to fly solo and that is what he was. If he was a better team player he would not have been MJ. You could also argue that some of the games when he played sick as a dog (was it 96 when he had the flu, 101 fever? can't remember) and his knees were going and still threw down 30 points and inspired his team to keep going despite everything? Sometimes the individual can at least inspire the team to follow him.

On the other hand (and I could do this all day, actually): without him, basketball would not be where it is today in the world because of all the people inspired to play watching him . . . and only the individual can do that. People follow other people not teams.

Oh, this post is going to get me in trouble . . . better escape now while I'm ahead.

[Civilis]

I tend to agree with mktackabery. It always comes down to our own values as to what we prefer - individual excellence or team performance.

I'd also agree that it is great individuals who usually serve as a source of inspiration rather than teams (esp. in today's professional club basketball where team's identity is a very flexible concept).

What I can tell from my own experience was that entire Lithuanian generation of players grew up watching Sabonis - a great individual player with some incredible skills, which were very different from the ones of "His Airness".

Sabas always enjoyed giving an excellent assist more than scoring himself or making some spectacular dunk. Some assists were not less breathtaking than Jordan's "acrobatics".

My argument is that an individual player can be a sports icon not only by representing individualist performance, but also by making everyone around him better, often in a spectacular way.

[LuDux]

Or was "His Airness" the biggest individualist the world basketball has ever seen who allowed himself throw 40 shots per game with quite poor shot percentage (hardly reached 50 pecent in field goal attempts and for most of his career was way below 30 percent in 3 point attempts)?
Wrong (1- regular season, 2 - Jordan FG%, 3 - Chicago FG%)
1984-85 51,5 > 50,0
1986 45,7 < 48,1 (18gm - injury)
1987 48,2 > 47,3
1988 53,5 > 49,0
1989 53,8 > 49,5
1990 52,6 > 49,8
1991 53,9 > 51,0
1992 51,9 > 50,8
1993 49,5 > 48,2

1995 41,1 < 47,6 (17gm - retirement)
1996 49,5 > 47,8
1997 48,6 > 47,3
1998 46,5 > 45,1

[Civilis]

What's wrong? You proved my point yourself. :D

His FG shooting pecentage was lower than 50 per cent in 7 out of 13 seasons in the NBA, which is not that classy from the "world's best ever basketball player" :)

[HIGHLANDER]

I respect MJ's uniqueness as an extraordinary athlete, but e.g. when Chicago was playing against Phoenix in finals back then, I was always supporting Charles Barkley who was a better contributor to the team. The irony of destiny, however, he never got an NBA championship ring...

It is not an irony!
I didn't see 1 player v 5 or 12,
There where other players on the team contributing and i believe he made them better.
Championship medals prove the best team always win.:cool:
His game was not only spectacular moves to the basket, he done the little things that make a team better, only the educated basketball eye would see this.
No offense

[final countdown]

When i see questions like the one in this thread i start wondering!

Is Earth round?

Is Albert Einstein the biggest scientist in history?

Is Michael Jordan the biggest bball player ever?

Of course MJ had under 50% FG,
of course MJ lost heavy shots,
of course MJ's team was losing even when he was present.
SO what?

MJ is an American. SO what?

Was Drazen less egoist than MJ, because he was born in Europe?
Are MIT or Harvard not good universities because they r placed in USA?

But even if u r too european to accept MJ, read in my signature what other GREAT bball players had said about HIM!

I'm not doupting International Basketball BY accepting MJ as the BEST ever!!
Don't become like some poor americans saying that LeBron or Wade are the next MJ!!!!

IMO:
Being a bball fan without accepting the greatness of MJ, is the same thing as being a christian and not believe in Jesus!!!

[Civilis]

Dear final countdown, you have a very simplistic view on the world, which, I guess, makes you feel safe :) You just sound indoctrinated. Nothing more to add.

PS. "Albert Einstein - the biggest scientist in history": Wow! Or the only one you ever heard of? :D :D :D

[final countdown]

Dear final countdown, you have a very simplistic view on the world, :D :D :D

There is no other way for a scientist.

[mktackabery]

There is no other way for a scientist.
I hope you aren't being serious.

[HIGHLANDER]

But even if u r too european to accept MJ,


I think final countdown makes a good point here, Civillis. I think you fall into this category....:cool:

[Nikoo]

First of all-I HATE JORDON but my hate doesnt blind me.
Why he shooted under 50%-he was goddamm guard not Center like Wilt or Shaq or Kareem
Why he shooted under 30%- because he is not pansy like the euro players:D
He was not a kind of player who made teammates around him look better...-yep but hes job was simple-to score, but he did a lot of small thing who helped his team-passing of the DTs or developing post game to compensate lack of scoring centers in Chicago and so on...
Didn't the brand and myth of MJ become stronger than the basketball player himself?-Yes

Jordan is THE greatest SG to ever play the game AND on of the 3 greatest players ever


Sabas always enjoyed giving an excellent assist more than scoring himself or making some spectacular dunk. Some assists were not less breathtaking than Jordan's "acrobatics".
I know one thing-is you want something do it by yourself;)

[HIGHLANDER]

I think all you guys underestimate the fact that he also improved the players around him (bulls).:cool:

[Civilis]

But even if u r too european to accept MJ,


I think final countdown makes a good point here, Civillis. I think you fall into this category....:cool:

Please, Highlander, give me a break. I am not anti-American in any possible way. US may not be my favourite country to spend my life in (have been studying there though), but I even think if it was not there, it must be invented!

No need to generalize my opinion about Jordan (whom I anyway respect) on anti-something.

I have only brough a case for discussion with rather neutral arguments from both sides.

[HIGHLANDER]

Please, Highlander, give me a break. I am not anti-American in any possible way. US may not be my favourite country to spend my life in (have been studying there though), but I even think if it was not there, it must be invented!

No need to generalize my opinion about Jordan (whom I anyway respect) on anti-something.

I have only brough a case for discussion with rather neutral arguments from both sides.


OK, maybe slightly a general statement to make, can't quite accept him as being an overrated player, actually his fieldgoal % doesn't look to bad judging from those stats so your argument there is not to strong. We have come to this point before i remember, and repeat it would be boring if we all had the same opinion.
Where did you go to in the states? did you play ball?:cool:

[final countdown]

I think all you guys underestimate the fact that he also improved the players around him (bulls).:cool:

Totally agree!
Don't forget what happened seasons 93-94 (Jordan was absent) and 94-95 (only 17 games).

....No ring for the rest of the Bulls.

[-K2-]

if Jordan played by todays rules, he would average 50 PPG and scored 100 at least twice a season

[final countdown]

if Jordan played by todays rules, he would average 50 PPG and scored 100 at least twice a season

bold can be replaced also with "opponents" :)

[CreEkShooT]

final countdown ise kamenos file!ok jordan was the one and only he was the michalakis as i call hi but life goes one and the myths were born to live till and other myth come in life,i dont say that wade or lebron are as good as he was but i can say that for kobe,as the 81 points prove that,kobe is propably the man who is continuing his job...

[cwilson13]

What's wrong? You proved my point yourself. :D

His FG shooting pecentage was lower than 50 per cent in 7 out of 13 seasons in the NBA, which is not that classy from the "world's best ever basketball player" :)

What other guards had higher field goal percentages than Jordan during this time? Magic, Mo Cheeks, Stockton...I can't think of many more.


"Or was "His Airness" the biggest individualist the world basketball has ever seen who allowed himself throw 40 shots per game with quite poor shot percentage"

-22.9 shots per game for career (not 40) and .497 shooter for career.


"Sabas always enjoyed giving an excellent assist more than scoring himself or making some spectacular dunk. Some assists were not less breathtaking than Jordan's "acrobatics"."

-Sabonis is my favorite all time player, but he did not average as many assists per game as Jordan did. (I know a guard vs. a center, but that works the other way for field goal percentage) After the 1986-87 and 1987-88 seasons, some people said that Jordan was a ball hog. The next year he came out and averaged 8 assists per game (what shooting guards get that many assists?) and still averaged 32.5 points per game.

So to answer your question...
Jordan was a unique basketball talent, a sports magician.

[final countdown]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-04-17-jordan_x.htm

I rest my case.

[Zalgirinis]

I just ran reading through the thread quickly. Even if I have respect for Jordan as probably the best player ever, but more or less I agree with Civilis. Jordan is/was overhyped egoistic player, for whom Stern created all the propoganda through the media to earn as much $ as possible.

Before IBN went down I remember there was a thread about it with mvblair (hey man if you read this, come back to IBN!!!) posting great posts about this issue, sadly it got lost...

EDIT.

I found the link as thread was recovered in IBN. I agree with most things mvblair said there, so I dont feel the need to repeat the stuff said. http://forums.interbasket.net/showthread.php?t=121

[HIGHLANDER]

Bollocks, to be honest (Blaire).
I don't care if he is not political, or sponsored by NIke, Gatorade ect.
His basketball skills is what i look at and i believe he was the best of the best ever. Ok maybe he wanted to take the last shot all the time but u need a certain type of arrogance to be the go to guy when it comes to the crunch.
I say again i think everyone has underestimated what he done for the team, and how each player played a role that worked perfectly by working on each others strengths and weaknesses.
He never played 1 V 5 it was always 5 v 5 as far as i can remember.:cool:

[worldbasketball]

But sports should not be only about skills. We should be critical and try not to idolise certain individuals who have basic flaws just like you and me.

One matter that comes over and over again with huge misgivings is the protection around his personna on court. Players are intimidated as they dread being penalised simply because it is him. Certain move against him -- a foul. The same exact move against others -- no foul. MJ can travel and not called upon, but you get called for the same travel. You complain, a technical foul, he complains, a smile and a pat on his back and he gets what he wants. I am not saying he actually "asked" to be favoured. It is just that things were run that way because of this over-protection and because of this charismatic aura others simply didn't have. I hate injustice being committed this blatantly for everybody to see to make you feel sick with the utter theatrics of it.

Another matter we ignore is this is one of the very few players who gave up on basketball to play baseball, and very crappily I may add. Just what professional player behaves this way, tell me.

So there are misgivings about him on court. Off court, they become even worse with clear personal character flaws. His betting and gambling habits for one. These are so well documented it is amazing none of you brought it up here. Some of the cheques he wrote for 5 figures on a one night gambling spree were bets payable to very shady individuals he was associated with in one form or another. Some had criminal records. The press also speculated the murder of his father In the year before his retirement had to do something with it.

Jordan had admitted to having to cover $57,000 in a gambling loss. Author Richard Esquinas wrote a book claiming he had won $1.3 million in gambling money from Jordan on the golf course. At the same time, Jordan had also been spotted at casinos in Atlantic City. One theory states that the increased scrutiny for Jordan's gambling activities led to a "deal" between Jordan and the NBA that he quits the NBA for some time.

He had a lot of slack from the black communities he comes from by making himself the man of the establishment and big business creating so much misconception. The mentality of "I Wanna Be Like Mike", a slogan attached to Michael Jordan has meant destruction of so many lives in black minority youth. Some youiths really think being like Mike is the only feasable way of saving them from their miserable livelihood. This is actually true. A handful do succeed (although they will not be like him). But behind every rare success story, there are thousands of shattered lives who realised, though late, that not everybody can be like "Mike".

Also a consistent accusation is how brands associated to him are manufactured in sweat shops and then marketed at huge prices. The disparity of the pay to the price was so apparent workers could work for weeks and weeks producing hundred of Air Jordan shoes and couldn't even afford buying with their pay one single pair. He let these things go on without much concern to their plight.

If he had saved on the alleged 1.3 million dollars paid on a stupid vice to one single individual (there were many more), just this one sum would have turned the lots around of hundreds of workers making shoes carrying his name.

So let us be crtical and not paint him with this perfect cleaner-than-thou hyped picture. He was a great player. But there were many many other great players as well.

[mktackabery]

But sports should not be only about skills. We should be critical and try not to idolise certain individuals who have basic flaws just like you and me. agreed world, excellent point. I don't believe in making false gods especially of guys in shorts. Even if they look good in shorts.;)

One matter that comes over and over again with huge misgivings is the protection around his personna on court. . . I am not saying he actually "asked" to be favoured. It is just that things were run that way because of this over-protection and because of this charismatic aura others simply didn't have. I hate injustice being committed this blatantly for everybody to see to make you feel sick with the utter theatrics of it. I disagree with this, conspiracy theories are bulls**t IMHO about this subject, U.S. refs actually call the stars harder because they don't want to get the criticism plus they are ticked off they are dealing with overpaid crybabies, so I don't buy this point.

Another matter we ignore is this is one of the very few players who gave up on basketball to play baseball, and very crappily I may add. Just what professional player behaves this way, tell me. This makes him a bad man? I don't get it. People fail at things all the time, more than they succeed, MJ just did it in front of millions of people. Give the man a break. He tried something he always wanted to do, he failed, he got over it. MJ was a huge baseball fan, has been since he was a kid. We should all learn that lesson. If he teaches us nothing else about life, this should be it - try, try again.

So there are misgivings about him on court. Off court, they become even worse with clear personal character flaws. If we start judging all our ballplayers on this, there will be no ballplayers left. There will actually be none of us left. I agree that he shouldn't gamble or cheat on his wife, but really it's none of my business what he does. If he wants to gamble away all of his money and (IMO) live like a slave to that lifestyle, that's his problem.

He had a lot of slack from the black communities he comes from by making himself the man of the establishment and big business creating so much misconception. I disagree, the slack does not come from there, not in the U.S.A. It comes from the white community and it is racially biased. As a (mostly) white person I feel justified in making this accusation before anyone jumps down my throat. In the words of the great Charles Barkley, no ballplayer has to be anyone's role model off the court. How can you blame MJ for Nike's misdeeds? That's like blaming the sky for raining. Yikes. On the court, that's another thing. I wish MJ had seemed more like a team player, but when he was accused of not being one, he came right back and acted like one. He changed the game forever and he expanded the game of basketball so that it is now all over the world. He did. There are a lot of things about his style of game I personally don't like. However, I'm in the minority. I like teams that share the basketball. But a lot of people like Air Jordan better. And not just in the U.S.A.

I'm all for being critical as long as we are truly being critical and not being judgmental. I'm not sure these points necessarily speak to his skills as a player.

[Zalgirinis]

I disagree with this, conspiracy theories are bulls**t IMHO about this subject, U.S. refs actually call the stars harder because they don't want to get the criticism plus they are ticked off they are dealing with overpaid crybabies, so I don't buy this point.

OMG, no pun intended, but just open your eyes when watching NBA basketball. What was happening with Wade in vs Dallas in NBA finals?!? You name that refs calling stars harder :eek: I thought even NBA fans all agree that this star treatment stuff exists everyday (and guess who created it). If to talk about Jordan, lets remember how he slamed Sonics' Hawkins to the ground and wasnt given even the foul in crucial minutes of the finals. And of course its just one episode of millions Jordan had...

[mktackabery]

oh, whine whine whine, I just don't buy it Z.

[Timmy D for MVP]

There was an idea lately to create a separate thread for the "one and only" Michael Jordan and his impact on the modern-day world basketball :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/Jeffas/jordan_dunk_gm6201.jpg

Was "His Airness" a unique basketball talent, a sports magician whose phenomenal athletic abilities attracted crowds to watch unforgettable basketball performances? Many people would probably agree that, if not for MJ phenomenon, basketball nowadays would not be such a popular sport worldwide, and he will remain the icon for our sport for the years to come.

Or was "His Airness" the biggest individualist the world basketball has ever seen who allowed himself throw 40 shots per game with quite poor shot percentage (hardly reached 50 pecent in field goal attempts and for most of his career was way below 30 percent in 3 point attempts)? He was not a kind of player who made teammates around him look better, but rather needed the ones like Pippen or Rodman to do the "black work on court" for "his majesty" to shine.

Wasn't it the example of "his Airness" that led to the emergence of lots of individualist "stars" whose play is so predictable and boring to watch (except the athletic dunks for the pop-corn eating masses), and what has ruined the quality of NBA in the eyes of many? Didn't the brand and myth of MJ become stronger than the basketball player himself?

I know it is a controversial discussion, but I believe it is worth bringing up. :)


No MJ wasn't individualist, in fact because of him there is a new standard of greatness. He made everyone around him better, ask Scottie Pippen why he's in the 50 greatest players of all time. He'll say because Jordan taught him. Predictable? Who predicted he'd drop 65 in Boston, or become one of the most feared defenders the game has ever seen. Or a great passer, and win 6 rings in 8 years? Did you? Jordan did more than score points, he got dirty too, and that's why he's truly the greatest.

And Barkley was a PF during the Jordan era, he HAD to be a distributor. That was his job.

[GR8BBALL]

MJ was by no means overhyped, the guy built his own legend...
He was a big time scorer in times when defenses were really tough unlike the game they play now in the nba...
Besides, he didn't just score he was an excellent in defense was name several times all defensive team, very smart and won championships...
When I hear the word overhyped, names like Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner or Michael Olowokandi come randomly to my mind--MJ has changed the game as noone has had before...

[mktackabery]

When I hear the word overhyped, names like Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner or Michael Olowokandi come randomly to my mind--MJ has changed the game as noone has had before...
agree on Laettner and Ferry. have to think on Olowokandi a bit, but probably. Laettner, sigh. Can't stand him.