Euroleague 07-08 teams

[rayo1985]

Hi all
I'm very affraid that in next season we don't see a Champion of Ukrain. This will be big mistake for future growing Euroleague. Euroleague must invoit BC Kiev becouse thay have a good team and he have a top budget of Europe teams and it will be many people interested of (Ukrain). If it dosn't happent the teams of Ucraine maybe cut their budgets for next seasons(BC Kiev for sure). It will be blame.
I also want secound team of Russia for next season. If it dosent happend I started thinking about ULEB compired FIBA organization (verybad organization).
What are u thinkin ... ?

[Buducnost PG]

Hi all
I'm very affraid that in next season we don't see a Champion of Ukrain. This will be big mistake for future growing Euroleague. Euroleague must invoit BC Kiev becouse thay have a good team and he have a top budget of Europe teams and it will be many people interested of (Ukrain). If it dosn't happent the teams of Ucraine maybe cut their budgets for next seasons(BC Kiev for sure). It will be blame.
I also want secound team of Russia for next season. If it dosent happend I started thinking about ULEB compired FIBA organization (verybad organization).
What are u thinkin ... ?

For now there will be no changes. EL will include 24 teams like this year and they are not going to give one place to the ukrain and no 2nd for russia.

[Jan van Grabski]

the expansion is not going to happen this year and next year as well. Jordi told himself, that if we will see any movement related to additional spots this is going to happen in 2010 at the earliest. So Ukraine and Russia will have to wait, especially Ukraine will have to wait.....

[qiangdade]

I think is is absolutely impossible that bc Kiev or a second russian team will play in the euroleague next season and i don't know how you got the idea it could happen. The participants are fixed:

4 teams spain
4 italy
3 greece
2 turkey
2 france
1 germany
1 lithuania
1 israel
1 slovenia
1 croatia
1 serbia
1 russia
1 poland
1 uleb cup winner/finalist

[LuDux]

the expansion is not going to happen this year and next year as well. Jordi told himself, that if we will see any movement related to additional spots this is going to happen in 2010 at the earliest. So Ukraine and Russia will have to wait, especially Ukraine will have to wait.....

Jordi told many things himself, that didn't materialized.



What if Olimpia is unable to play in EL next year?

[Buducnost PG]

I think is is absolutely impossible that bc Kiev or a second russian team will play in the euroleague next season and i don't know how you got the idea it could happen. The participants are fixed:

4 teams spain
4 italy
3 greece
2 turkey
2 france
1 germany
1 lithuania
1 israel
1 slovenia
1 croatia
1 serbia
1 russia
1 poland
1 uleb cup winner/finalist

4 italian again which will have one goal the Top16. This is crazy. The italian clubbasketball is weaker from year to year and they continue with 4 teams. Crazy world.

[PHILIPeurobasket]

1 team from Poland and we still didnt know who will be from Poland. Turow Zgorzelec is now in final, where wait for rival (Anwil or Prokom, I hope Anwil :rolleyes: ). Turow sign contract with big sponsor, so they will have big, very big moneys!!! Coach Filipovski led team for final - first time in team history, but I know that they want more ... Prokom have big problems with Anwil, they won first 2 games, but in Wloclawek they lost another 2. On Sunday they again beat Anwil and now is 3-2 for Prokom, but next game will be on Thuesday in Wloclawek, so if all will be OK we will have 3-3 :rolleyes: Everything can be possible ...

Team from Poland in EL 07/08 :confused: We must wait ... because Turow, Anwil or Prokom can be this team :rolleyes:

[Joško Poljak Fan]

Jordi told many things himself, that didn't materialized.



What if Olimpia is unable to play in EL next year?
...you'll have to watch Helios instead :D

[MikeMaccabiFan]

4 italian again which will have one goal the Top16. This is crazy. The italian clubbasketball is weaker from year to year and they continue with 4 teams. Crazy world.
And what about 2 teams for France? They do not deserve it...

[LuDux]

...you'll have to watch Helios instead :D

According to eb.com Helios play in 1200 place arena

[PHILIPeurobasket]

According to eb.com Helios play in 1200 place arena

So maybe Slovenian Federation will sell Polish Federation 2nd place in Euroleague :rolleyes: :D

[Buducnost PG]

And what about 2 teams for France? They do not deserve it...

I know but 2 are something diffrent then 4. But they are both big countries so Uleb has a big market there and so mostlikely they will also have the places in the future. Perhaps france with one more if the EL will get 32 teams and they give the team from Paris a contract.

[PHILIPeurobasket]

And what about 2 teams for France? They do not deserve it...

Why France :confused: and not Poland ...

[Calvin]

Spain should have three teams, Italy shouldn have two, greece should have two teams, turkey should only have a team, france and germany shouldn't have any teams in the EL.

[rikhardur]

france and germany shouldn't have any teams in the EL.
Of course they should, especially France, check how the French teams behaved this season in the Euroleague, pretty good.

[ArkadiosV2]

Russian and Serbia got the same number of teams as Poland. Crazy world.

[MikeMaccabiFan]

Of course they should, especially France, check how the French teams behaved this season in the Euroleague, pretty good.
Agree, but two teams are too much... I would give one place to Ukraine, for instance...

[C02]

Why France :confused: and not Poland ...
France having two teams is nonsense, but do you really believe that Poland deserves a second team on top of say Russia, or even Serbia, or Israel ? :)

[rikhardur]

Agree, but two teams are too much... I would give one place to Ukraine, for instance...
Yes, I second that.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

According to eb.com Helios play in 1200 place arena
I think their arena is sth. like 2000-2200 actually, but Domžale is practically a suburb of Ljubljana, so they wouldn't have any troubles playing in Tivoli arena... they might get butchered in EL in their bad seasons, but hey, some of the regular EL teams aren't better than what Helios would compile for EL anyway... and that btw is actually sad... really sad...


So maybe Slovenian Federation will sell Polish Federation 2nd place in Euroleague
like: never (i'll left out words combination like: Jordi-sniper-7.9mm-directly-head)
but Slovenian basketball federation wholefully agree you can get our spots in Fiba's league and all 11 spots in Fiba's cup...

[Picek]

Russian and Serbia got the same number of teams as Poland. Crazy world.
so?
If you take a look on how serbian champion performed in last 4-5 years you'll see one spot is enough..

[PHILIPeurobasket]

France having two teams is nonsense, but do you really believe that Poland deserves a second team on top of say Russia, or even Serbia, or Israel ? :)

Yes! First team will be Prokom, and second Anwil - this team everyone know in Europe, they was Polish champs, but didnt play in EL(!), they have great arena, and moneys for EL.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

Yes! First team will be Prokom, and second Anwil - this team everyone know in Europe, they was Polish champs, but didnt play in EL(!), they have great arena, and moneys for EL.
and how come they get repeatedly beaten in uleb cup by those same Serbian, Israeli, Russian clubs (not to mention some others) not even being able to qualify in the next round... they can offer Papaloukas a 3fiddy though...

get serious and stop writing complete bullshit.

[Digdis]

EL can only gain from such an expansion, and the sooner the better.
Can someone explain what Jordi can lose by performing such a step (say next year)?

[woma]

1 team from Poland and we still didnt know who will be from Poland. Turow Zgorzelec is now in final, where wait for rival (Anwil or Prokom, I hope Anwil :rolleyes: ). Turow sign contract with big sponsor, so they will have big, very big moneys!!! Coach Filipovski led team for final - first time in team history, but I know that they want more ... Prokom have big problems with Anwil, they won first 2 games, but in Wloclawek they lost another 2. On Sunday they again beat Anwil and now is 3-2 for Prokom, but next game will be on Thuesday in Wloclawek, so if all will be OK we will have 3-3 :rolleyes: Everything can be possible ...

Team from Poland in EL 07/08 :confused: We must wait ... because Turow, Anwil or Prokom can be this team :rolleyes:
Buhahaha, I don't see any chances for Turow and Anwil to play in Euroleague next season.
Only team which could kick-out Prokom out of Euroleague was Slask Wroclaw (with 6000 arena, quality airport, etc...), but they were eliminated in semifinals.
Even if Prokom would lose to Anwil in semifinal, I still would put my money on Prokom playing in EL next year - they are high on Euroleague's list + Prokom's sponsor is very good buddy with Bartomeau this days, so Philip - come back to reality.

[Titus]

Slovenian basketball federation wholefully agree you can get our spots in Fiba's league and all 11 spots in Fiba's cup...
fiba gave us 2 spots in eurocup 2 years ago, we had use only one and non of 4-5 spots in eurocup challenge, this season we took only 1 spot in eurocup and -the same- non in another fiba's cup,
managers in poland still dont understand that european competion can increase level of national competition (other opponents, style of play), allow to sign better players, popularize basketball (even with a couple of wins in fibas cups), they only think about "few" thousands more for the flying tickets to russia/netherlands/spain ect...
so... thanks Matiz ;-)

Buhahaha, I don't see any chances for Turow and Anwil to play in Euroleague next season.
Only team which could kick-out Prokom out of Euroleague was Slask Wroclaw (with 6000 arena, quality airport, etc...), but they were eliminated in semifinals.
i agree about turow in euroleague cause no european experience , but anwil played in uleb cup (...didnt achieve any success) and the can paly in bydgoszcz (arena for 8000 and international? airport). of course imo they need plk championship (not only final)

[woma]

i agree about turow in euroleague cause no european experience , but anwil played in uleb cup (...didnt achieve any success) and the can paly in bydgoszcz (arena for 8000 and international? airport). of course imo they need plk championship (not only final)
Still it won't be enough IMHO, why you should give Euroleague spot for a team which was a losing machine in ULEB CUP?
But I agree, that Anwil would need a Championship to think about it, losing final vs Turow won't help them at all.

[QuizCro]

Which team from France does has three-year contract? Pau that didn't make it to the playoffs or Le Mans?

[Picek]

EL can only gain from such an expansion, and the sooner the better.
Can someone explain what Jordi can lose by performing such a step (say next year)?the question is what can he gain by such a step?
IMO not much...
just take a look at more empty then full halls in most of the cities..
only few clubs are playing infront of full halls..

ULEB has a whole lot of work to do before they can expand the league..
they need to make some ground rules about club budgets in order to avoid things like U. Olimpija case from this and last few seasons or Cibona case few seasons ago.. or Partizan who is also having debt problems..
etc. etc.

If you ask me I would even cut the number of clubs...

[qiangdade]

the question is what can he gain by such a step?
IMO not much...
just take a look at more empty then full halls in most of the cities..
only few clubs are playing infront of full halls..

ULEB has a whole lot of work to do before they can expand the league..
they need to make some ground rules about club budgets in order to avoid things like U. Olimpija case from this and last few seasons or Cibona case few seasons ago.. or Partizan who is also having debt problems..
etc. etc.

If you ask me I would even cut the number of clubs...

As much as i would like to see a 32 team euroleague with qualification rounds, if we take under consideration the factors money power, decent arena and attendance there are only a handful of teams to form a closed league: Pao, Oly, Maccabi, real, malaga, tau, barcelona, cska...

[PHILIPeurobasket]

Today in Polish newspaper is news and info that: POlish champion will be play in EL, team from 2nd game in ULEB, and team who won Polish Cup (Anwil won it) in FIBA... Turow wait in final so they will play in EL or ULEB, and in 2nd semifinal we have 3-3.

Newspaper write is Turow arena is too small, and if they want play in ULEB they must think about it. Turow board think, think, think and they probably cup games will be play in Liberec (Czech Rep.) :D
http://miasta.gazeta.pl/wroclaw/1,35760,4122248.html

[T.W.Is.M.]

While reading an interview of Zisis about his(and the team's) season at Treviso and his future there, a thought came 2 my mind:Is it possible that Benetton who finished under the 8th place in Lega A loses its EL spot, but this spot is not given 2 another italian team considering Italian clubs' weak performances this season?

[Roy M]

The right thing to do is like that:

4 Teams from Spain
3 teams from Greece
2 teams from Rusia
2 teams from Italy (very weak this season)
2 teams from Israel
2 teams from Turkie
2 teams from Serbia
1 from the Adriatic league
1 from Poland
1 from France
1 from ULEB-CUP champ
1 free card from England/Holland/Swiss or so
2 team from an early round

24 teams in 4 groups with 6 teams each.

1-4 places promoted to the next round and the 6th place loose the next season card.

1/8 final:
1-4, 2-3 in crossing groups in best of 5.

1/4 final:
winner 1-4 against 2-3 winners in best of five

1/2 final best of 5
Final best of seven.

Home advantage:
1/8 final to the better possision team
1/4, 1/2 and final: the better possision in the regular season and if it is the same: the best cuculation in the regular season.

[Vilius]

The right thing to do is like that:

4 Teams from Spain
3 teams from Greece
2 teams from Rusia
2 teams from Italy (very weak this season)
2 teams from Israel
2 teams from Turkie
2 teams from Serbia
1 from the Adriatic league
1 from Poland
1 from France
1 from ULEB-CUP champ
1 free card from England/Holland/Swiss or so
2 team from an early round

What about Lithuanian teams? :rolleyes:

[pablonis]

Yes, ofcourse, lets take away the sole place that one of the biggest basketball countries in the world (Lithuania) has in euroleague and give it to - England, Switzerland, Israel, Tajikistan, Chechnya or whoever else... :D
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WEB SHOWS (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[LuDux]

Roy M, I don't think you have thought your cunning plan all the way through

[V@Roxe##13]

3 teams from Spain
3 teams from Greece
3 teams from Italy
3 trams from Adriatic league
2 teams from Turkey
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Lituania
1 team from France
1 team from Germany
1 team from Poland
1 team from Izrael
1 team from England
1 team from Ukraine

[Roy M]

What about Lithuanian teams? :rolleyes:


right, forgot.
1 from Israel and 1 or 2 from Lithuanian.

[T.W.Is.M.]

3 teams from Spain
3 teams from Greece
3 teams from Italy
3 trams from Adriatic league
2 teams from Turkey
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Lituania
1 team from France
1 team from Germany
1 team from Poland
1 team from Izrael
1 team from England
1 team from Ukraine

sorry but I prefer 1 team from USA/Australia/Puerto Rico/any other non-european country over England:D

[Joško Poljak Fan]

sorry but I prefer 1 team from USA/Australia/Puerto Rico/any other non-european country over England:D
Mozambique might do... they've done about the same for bball development in europe as England has... unless of course we consider 2 years of London Towers participating in euroleague as a negative contribution :rolleyes:

english team in euroleague might be even funnier than Japan repetedly receiving wild cards for division A hockey WC...

[KokkinosVasilias]

I think that today ULEB was going to decide if they will let Treviso participate in the next EL, have they announced their decision?

[Joško Poljak Fan]

I think that today ULEB was going to decide if they will let Treviso participate in the next EL, have they announced their decision?
from what I know about Uleb's mentality...

Siena, Milano, Roma, Napoli and Virtus are on top 5 positions in LegaA and are battling for Italian title... Allowing Benneton next year means less chances for Milano/Roma/Napoli to qualify to EL and I can't really explain how surprised I'll be if Uleb has a chance to let Benneton out and doesn't use it... it's uleb afterall.

[Roy M]

from what I know about Uleb's mentality...

Siena, Milano, Roma, Napoli and Virtus are on top 5 positions in LegaA and are battling for Italian title... Allowing Benneton next year means less chances for Milano/Roma/Napoli to qualify to EL and I can't really explain how surprised I'll be if Uleb has a chance to let Benneton out and doesn't use it... it's uleb afterall.


If Biela, for example, will be in the League final: they w'ont be in the Euroleague?

[Genjuro]

Not considering money ramifications, it could be something like:

4 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
2 teams from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Lithuania
1 team from Germany
1 team from Poland
1 team from France
1 team from Belgium
1 team from Ukraine

That's 20 teams. Then I would make a preliminary round with an extra 12 teams to get the remaining 4 teams. The 8 teams out would qualify for the ULEB Cup.

2 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
1 team from the Baltic League
1 team from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel

[gravity]

Not considering money ramifications, it could be something like:

4 teams from Spain

2 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
1 team from the Baltic League
1 team from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel


I dont understand what is spain's superiotiy for 4 teams. 4 teams for a country is nonsense.

Extra teams by Poland,Greece,Turkey,Lithuania or Russia can add more excitement to euroleagues. And this can give more motivations to their league.

Good example for this Dynamo Moskow.

[TB-Fan]

I agree. 4 teams from 1 Country is too much. although Spain is the ONLY country which deserves 4 teams in EL. Italy deserves only 1. Russia should have 2. German teams are useless for EL. They can have 3 in Uleb Cup.

[Buducnost PG]

Not considering money ramifications, it could be something like:

4 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
2 teams from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Lithuania
1 team from Germany
1 team from Poland
1 team from France
1 team from Belgium
1 team from Ukraine

That's 20 teams. Then I would make a preliminary round with an extra 12 teams to get the remaining 4 teams. The 8 teams out would qualify for the ULEB Cup.

2 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
1 team from the Baltic League
1 team from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel


Adriatic Leauge is not giving EL-spots. Now we have 3 teams in EL which play in the Adriatic League and no way that we will agree to get one cut and play some qualification. Adriatic League is in the battle for one place for the Champion. And the other places will stay as they are one place serbia, one croatia and one slovenia. If we put all places to the Adriatic League then we will play for nothing in the national championship. And most of the federations are not statisfied with the NLB. There is even a chance that Serbia will leave the leauge in the future.

[Genjuro]

I dont understand what is spain's superiotiy for 4 teams. 4 teams for a country is nonsense.
Let's picture some examples of the Spanish superiority:
- Two teams in the Euroleague Final Four.
- Three teams in the Euroleague quarterfinal round.
- Four teams in the Top-16 round.
- Real Madrid won the ULEB Cup.
- Akasvayu Girona won the FIBA EuroCup (undefeated for the whole competition, I think).
- Two teams in the FIBA EuroCup Final Four (FIBA rules paired Estudiantes and Akasvayu in the semifinals, so only Akasvayu could make it to the final).
- Unicaja Málaga (a Euroleague Final Four team), has finished eighth in the ACB regular season.
- The European league with the best attendance by a huge margin (around 7,000 per game; actually a demoted team like Bruesa has averaged over 9,000 this season).
- The European league with the biggest budgets.

With the fall of the Italian league, and the lack of depth of the Russian (particularly since Dynamo St.Petersburg disappeared) and Greek leagues, there's not even competition for Spain.

Tau, F.C.Barcelona, Real Madrid, Unicaja Málaga, DKV Joventut and Akasvayu Girona are clear-cut Euroleague level teams, and Pamesa Valencia not far away (Avdalovic, Timiskas, Milojevic, Garces, Douglas, Miralles, Oliver, Claver...). Seven teams there. Why not four places for the Euroleague? I'm not asking that much.

Lithuanian guys ask for two spots, when they only have two teams and the rest is pure crap. You ask for an extra Turkish team, and we all know the level drops significantly after Efes and Fenerbahce-Ulker. A Israeli guy asked for two places and Happoel is a solid team, but again I think it's much more exaggerated relatively speaking.


Adriatic Leauge is not giving EL-spots. Now we have 3 teams in EL which play in the Adriatic League and no way that we will agree to get one cut and play some qualification. Adriatic League is in the battle for one place for the Champion. And the other places will stay as they are one place serbia, one croatia and one slovenia. If we put all places to the Adriatic League then we will play for nothing in the national championship. And most of the federations are not statisfied with the NLB. There is even a chance that Serbia will leave the leauge in the future.
You will play for... the national championship, won't you?

Anyway, I'm aware that's almost impossible, but it would be the best way to pick the best teams from the area, and not having to settle for some crappy squad if it happens that Olimpia Ljubljana or Cibona Zagreb suck on a given year. After all, we could consider if Slovenia really deserves a place ahead of, let's say, Ukraine.

[Buducnost PG]

You will play for... the national championship, won't you?

Anyway, I'm aware that's almost impossible, but it would be the best way to pick the best teams from the area, and not having to settle for some crappy squad if it happens that Olimpia Ljubljana or Cibona Zagreb suck on a given year. After all, we could consider if Slovenia really deserves a place ahead of, let's say, Ukraine

Yes the teams from the region must play for the national championship, but again if all the places are given through NLB, then there will be no real competion for the national championship.

The people in ex-yugoslavia are no friends of the NLB league as it is now. The arenas are empty and the league is only giving 3 uleb cup spots.

And your idea is not bad, but no way that something like this will come, because we are not one country anymore and the most people are for it, that the national championships become more important then it is the NLB.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

agreed on 4 spanish teams.
ACB is right now without any clear competition and could imo be called the only serious league in europe, now after 3-4 years of downfall of LegaUno.
While Genjuro states there are 7 teams on EL level, I do believe practically all ACB teams could put up a decent team when being faced with playing in EL... actually I said decent, but still better team than most "national champs" do...
right now Spain is just 2 levels in front of others.

Regarding Adriatic league I doubt it's possible... it's an ideal solution for Uleb, but none of those 3 national federations are willing to agree on that. There is a big interest from sponsors for this league to keep on and financial prizes are about to improve through year- with this pace it might just happen being a champion in NLB league would bring almost as much as playing in euroleague (just when we were talking marketing incompetence of Uleb in the other topic, considering NLB is far from it's optimal state and interest for this league is minor compared to EL)- but I don't believe any federation would be willing to give up on EL spot.

It's true that in Slovenia if Olimpija wasn't the champ, the other team would get 2-12 or 3-11 score (eventhough I have some serious doubts about that after this years edition of EL), while as of Croatia I think Zadar in case of playing in EL could put up a solid team never the less... and croatian bball isn't exactly at peak, I doubt ther is much room for falling lower and things have to change eventually...

Also true about consideration about Ucraine in front of Slovenia, but I'll say it's a credit for the area from 1995-2003/4 when Olimpija was repeatedly among better teams in europe... and I'd wonder about some other countries compared to Ucraine as well... but it's true we're getting close to the edge of 24th team, not result wise (worst season ever and Olimpija still manages a 5-9), but organisation, budget and marketing wise... it's a fact that if a 2 mio people market wants to stay in EL you need something more.

Don't know if that'll happen in the future... Olimpija has 5.5 mio € debts and we'll see in august if the club will survive, if it won't than I guess I'll have to wait fo 5-6 years untill Olimpija again starts kicking ass...

[Joško Poljak Fan]

The people in ex-yugoslavia are no friends of the NLB league as it is now. The arenas are empty and the league is only giving 3 uleb cup spots.
NLB has some wired system the way Uleb does in EL as well... there are some second thoughts about it because of that.
But I believe that what people from that area resent the most is that noone can forget the strenght of the old league and can't take this NLB league seriously than.
Ex-Yu had dominant league back than, and it was tougher to win the national title than to win the euroleague, NLB is 3 levels under the old one and people aren't used of the level and are tired of players leaving abroad just to return half of the player they were at the age of 19,20 (in lots of cases)...

without those 3 UC spots, I believe the league would be dead immediately.

[gravity]

- The European league with the biggest budgets.

Lithuanian guys ask for two spots, when they only have two teams and the rest is pure crap. You ask for an extra Turkish team, and we all know the level drops significantly after Efes and Fenerbahce-Ulker. A Israeli guy asked for two places and Happoel is a solid team, but again I think it's much more exaggerated relatively speaking.



Thank you for picture of Spain. They deserved 4 teams...

The level drops because they dont have any target. if ULEB can open least 4-5 positions for new teams everyyear, you can be sure other countries like Turkey can add more teams least Fenerbahce-Ulker level..

Example, i'm sure about Besiktas and Galatasaray. Because they are big rivals of Fenerbahce and they always want to fight together in same races... But in today's situation they cant join to euroleague, so, they dont create better budgets...

Maybe uleb cant open a direct way but they can accept semi-finalists of Uleb CUP or something like this...

[PHILIPeurobasket]

Today in internet I read that Prokom Trefl will have immovable place in Euroleague :mad: !!! Teams in Poland will be fight only about ULEB Cup - even if they will beat Prokom in final ... :mad: :mad: :mad: What a bullshit !!!!

[Flower_Power]

Prokom Trefl will have immovable place


OMG... :D

Well, we already have some very old and quite immovable players, so U can take it as a natural consequence... :D :D :D

[MikeMaccabiFan]

While I agree that ACB has many quality teams, that is very unbalanced situation - Spain should have 3 places, Russia, Greece, and Turkey should have 2. Israel, France, Germany, Slovenia, Serbia, Croatia, Poland, Belgium, Ukraine (Matiz - Ukraine is spelled with k, buddy:)), Lithuania, Italy - 1 one e.o. - 20 teams.
After that, like Genjuro proposed...

[C02]

Not considering money ramifications, it could be something like:

4 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
2 teams from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Lithuania
1 team from Germany
1 team from Poland
1 team from France
1 team from Belgium
1 team from Ukraine

That's 20 teams. Then I would make a preliminary round with an extra 12 teams to get the remaining 4 teams. The 8 teams out would qualify for the ULEB Cup.

2 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
1 team from the Baltic League
1 team from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel

I agree with the qualification round concept. 6 possible Spanish teams are too much, though. ACB is a great success, but anything beyond 4 teams in the EL is just too much. EL is an international competition and diversity of the participating countries is a big part of the attraction. I would hate to see it turning into a mini-ACB, or mini-any-other successful league.
I'd change your proposal like this:

The automatic participants:
4 teams from Spain
3 teams from Greece
3 teams from Russia
2 teams from the Adriatic League
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Lithuania
1 team from France
1 team from Poland
1 team from Ukraine

21 teams so far.

Preliminary round:
1 team from Greece
1 team from Russia
1 team from Italy
1 team from the Baltic League
1 team from the Adriatic League
1 team from Belgium
1 team from Israel
1 team from France
1 team from Germany

3 groups of 3 teams.
The 3 group winners get the ticket to the EL. The rest compete in the ULEB cup.

[Roy M]

I agree with the qualification round concept. 6 possible Spanish teams are too much, though. ACB is a great success, but anything beyond 4 teams in the EL is just too much. EL is an international competition and diversity of the participating countries is a big part of the attraction. I would hate to see it turning into a mini-ACB, or mini-any-other successful league.
I'd change your proposal like this:

The automatic participants:
4 teams from Spain
3 teams from Greece
3 teams from Russia
2 teams from the Adriatic League
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Lithuania
1 team from France
1 team from Poland
1 team from Ukraine

21 teams so far.

Preliminary round:
1 team from Greece
1 team from Russia
1 team from Italy
1 team from the Baltic League
1 team from the Adriatic League
1 team from Belgium
1 team from Israel
1 team from France
1 team from Germany

3 groups of 3 teams.
The 3 group winners get the ticket to the EL. The rest compete in the ULEB cup.


I like your idea. not far from my offer.

[Trifilli]

I thought that it'd be interesting to see how the teams from different countries did in the past in the Euroleague and how often teams from the respective countries participated in the league, to get an idea on how the EL spots correlate with the countries success in the league.
I went back till the 1996/1997 season therefore (change of competition system by FIBA) and analyzed all seasons, first counting the number of participations from each country that had a team in a F4 since that season, as well as the F4 (Semifinal participations counted as F4 participations) and Final appearances, plus the won EL trophies.
Here are the results:

EL participations of countries that had a F4 team since the 1996/1997 season:

Spain: 41 participations
Italy: 40 participations (+2 Suproleague 2001)
Greece: 35 participations (+2 Suproleague 2001)
France: 23 participations (+2 Suproleague 2001)
Turkey: 23 participations (+2 Suproleague 2001)
Russia: 16 participations (+1 Suproleague 2001)
Serbia: 14 participations (+1 Suproleague 2001)
Slovenia: 14 participations (+1 Suproleague 2001)
Israel: 12 participations (+2 Suproleague 2001)
Lithuania: 10 participations (+1 Suproleague 2001)

EL F4 participations since 1996/1997:

Italy: 12 F4 participations, 6 Finals, 2 EL Trophies
Spain: 9 F4 participations, 4 Finals, 1 EL Trophy
Greece: 8 F4 participations, 5 Finals, 4 EL Trophies (+1 F4 participation/ Final Suproleague 2001)
Israel: 5 F4 participations, 4 Finals, 2 EL Trophies (+1 F4, +1 Final, +1 Suproleague Title 2001)
Russia: 5 F4 participations, 2 Finals, 1 EL Trophy (+1 Suproleague F4 2001)
Lithuania: 1 F4 participation, 1 Final, 1 EL Trophy
Turkey: 1 F4 participation (+1 F4 Suproleague 2001)
France: 1 F4
Slovenia: 1 F4
Serbia: 1 F4

So Italy is the team with the most F4 appearances (12), while Greece brought home the most trophies (4) in 11 seasons. Spain ranks second in F4 participations (9), but only had one EL trophy in those 11 years.
Israel leads the standings when it comes to F4 participations per EL participations (2.4), followed by Russia (3.2) and Italy (3.3).
Israel also leads in the category EL trophies per EL participations (6), with Greece following (8.8).

I think that nobody will deny that Spain has the best league in Europe, with an amazing infrastructure and the best attendances. The spanish top teams failed to also dominate on the sportive end in the EL however, not having more success than the other big leagues, Italy and Greece. Of course this doesn't consider the depth of the league and imo it is clear that Spain should have more spots than the others - 4 are enough though imho, both based on the sportive results of the past and on diversity reasons (even more important than the results).

Italy may not have had huge success in the last few seasons, but overall 12 F4s in 11 season is a great number. They may lose a spot due to the decline of the league and weaker sportive results in the last 3 seasons, we have seen F4s without spanish (for example 2004, 2002) or greek (2006, 2004) teams in the recent past however , and those leagues appeared at the F4 again as well. So I'd not take away more than 1 spot from Italy for now, besides infrastucture and attendance numbers (those two things are at least no disaster in Italy) their past should give them an argument for that as well.

Greece has won the most EL trophies since 1996/1997 and has the 3rd most F4 participations during that period, having the 3rd most EL participations (35) of all F4 countries. The sportive arguments in the EL are good, and the league has passed its biggest crisis, however the depth of the league, the infrastucture and the attendance numbers could be better. Greece should stay with 3 spots therefore.

Russia and Israel have some great results in the EL, however mainly achieved by only two teams (CSKA and Maccabi). Still that leaves the question if those two leagues do not have a strong argument for a 2nd place, at least for the chance to see how a 2nd team would do. In Russias case we saw a 2nd team (Dynamo) reaching the Quarterfinals and unlike Israels league, the Russian league doesn't lack depth either, so they should definately get at least one more team, while a 2nd spot for Israel shouldn't be completely out of question.

France looks like the biggest disappointment here, out of 23 participations a french team only reached one F4 - in 1997. So there aren't really that many sportive reasons for two spots - ULEB might keep it that way though, because of the (in their eyes) attractive market. I'm definately against a third possible french spot (Paris) though, there is no room for that.

Of course all of this still leaves many questions unanswered and is just a short look on the results of the past 11 seasons. Imo it helps a bit at discussing about a few leagues/countries at least though.

[kestas]

Not considering money ramifications, it could be something like:

4 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
2 teams from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Lithuania
1 team from Germany
1 team from Poland
1 team from France
1 team from Belgium
1 team from Ukraine

That's 20 teams. Then I would make a preliminary round with an extra 12 teams to get the remaining 4 teams. The 8 teams out would qualify for the ULEB Cup.

2 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
1 team from the Baltic League
1 team from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel

thankfully no one with the decision power ever read these forums (and they shouldn't, actually). I personally think you're actually suggesting to replace one ill system with the other one based on only you know what.

[Neozyrus]

My solution would be a little bit different and would be based more or less in the ammount of teams of each country capables of making good performances in a competition of the level of EL


4 teams from Spain
3 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
2 teams from the Adriatic League (yeah i know the ploblem with that)
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Lithuania
1 team from Germany
1 team from Poland
1 team from France
1 team from Ukraine

(20 teams)

And i also would make a preliminary round with 12 teams to get the other 4, and the other 8 teams would go directly to the uleb cup

2 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Greece
1 teams from Italy
1 team from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Belgium
1 team from Lithuania

[qiangdade]

Ok i'll have to tell my opinion... I find the idea of a 24 teams euroleague where there could be 6 teams from one country, sick at best. I mean 1/4 from one country out of 48?(or let's say 10-12 relativelly competitive countries). I agree that many teams in the spanish league could be( or are) euroleague level but let's not make the el a second acb. Would be boring. There are many teams in europe that could build a competitive roster for the euroleague if given the chance other than the spanish ones. Again, nothing against spain, i love the league but i wouldn't like any country whatsoever having 1/4 of all el teams( in a 32 teams el with quallies, that would be another question...)

ps: this ever popping up, ongoing discussion about how the el format should be, only proves how faulty the current( and not bound to change any time soon) system is...

[CG]

My solution would be a little bit different and would be based more or less in the ammount of teams of each country capables of making good performances in a competition of the level of EL


4 teams from Spain
3 teams from Russia
2 teams from Italy
2 teams from Greece
2 teams from the Adriatic League (yeah i know the ploblem with that)
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Lithuania
1 team from Germany
1 team from Poland
1 team from France
1 team from Ukraine

(20 teams)

And i also would make a preliminary round with 12 teams to get the other 4, and the other 8 teams would go directly to the uleb cup

2 teams from Spain
2 teams from Russia
2 teams from Greece
1 teams from Italy
1 team from the Adriatic League
1 team from Turkey
1 team from Israel
1 team from Belgium
1 team from Lithuania


why greece only 2?do you know many teams like Aris with such fans and history?and in their first year went to final 16.Greece must have 3 teams for me.Not more not less

[Neozyrus]

why greece only 2?do you know many teams like Aris with such fans and history?and in their first year went to final 16.Greece must have 3 teams for me.Not more not less

Its pointless to discuss the amazing history or the fans attitude of Aris. But unfortunately history or fans doesnt play basket, and in my opinion the level of Aris last season was about an adriatic-league ot italian team more or less. If he continues playing like that, for sure he would deserve a permanent spot, but in the way some greek teams played lst years, like aek last year, or oly the year before... i think 2+2 places is a quite fair distribution.

By the way, and i know its not the correct forum to do this, congrats to all Pao fans, and amazing team and an amazing final. In Spain it was published in an article: "Diamantidis won the trophy and Papaloukas the legend". i think it was quite apropiate. Congratulations

[Neozyrus]

Ok i'll have to tell my opinion... I find the idea of a 24 teams euroleague where there could be 6 teams from one country, sick at best. I mean 1/4 from one country out of 48?(or let's say 10-12 relativelly competitive countries). I agree that many teams in the spanish league could be( or are) euroleague level but let's not make the el a second acb. Would be boring. There are many teams in europe that could build a competitive roster for the euroleague if given the chance other than the spanish ones. Again, nothing against spain, i love the league but i wouldn't like any country whatsoever having 1/4 of all el teams( in a 32 teams el with quallies, that would be another question...)

ps: this ever popping up, ongoing discussion about how the el format should be, only proves how faulty the current( and not bound to change any time soon) system is...


I think that those teams that you refer to, have already the opportunity of develop their roster and try to do something important: their own leagues. If they havnt the level to reach EL, ACB or russian leagues are not guilty of it. Pamesa Valencia , Akasvayu, for saying 2 examples that i know really well have almost never been in EL, although they have more than enough level to be there, and each year they try to improve to finally get to the EL, so thats the main point in other leagues at a different level, if you improve enough you will get to the EL, if you dont, youll go to ULEB

Its just the example of Russian league, a few years ago nobody gave a damn about their teams in EL, but they started to put a lot of money, to improve themselves a lot, and now, they have results, everybody here claims for at least 2 spots in EL for them. You also has the example of Oly a couple of years ago and right now...etc. If you have the potential to be in Euroleague sooner or later you will be, but if you dont have the level, its pointless to include you in the competition. Anyway thats just my opinion

I think that there are 2 points of view here, if you want just the best teams in the best competition, then u know what to do, but if you wanna expand the competition to other countries and give a choice to teams the have less potential/tradition, ok, its another point of view, but i think its a waste of potential

[Trifilli]

Its pointless to discuss the amazing history or the fans attitude of Aris. But unfortunately history or fans doesnt play basket, and in my opinion the level of Aris last season was about an adriatic-league ot italian team more or less. If he continues playing like that, for sure he would deserve a permanent spot, but in the way some greek teams played lst years, like aek last year, or oly the year before... i think 2+2 places is a quite fair distribution.

Wait, do I get you right that you take Aris performance, plus the AEK and Olympiakos of the past as a reason why Greece should get a guaranteed spot less, while at the same time you propose a 4+2 solution for Spain?

What about Joventut this season, do you think they did much better than Aris? (Badalona 7-7 in the RS / 1-5 Top16 - Aris 6-8 in the RS / 1-5 Top16)

And if you mention the tragic AEK of the 2005-2006 season, please also mention the tragic Estudiantes of the 2004-2005 season (4-10 RS), while Unicaja got eliminated in the RS in the very same season as well (6-8), followed by Real and Barca in the Top16 (both 2-4), so only 1 out of 5 spanish teams made it to the Quarterfinals that year.
In the 2003-2004 season we saw a tragic Unicaja getting eliminated in the RS as well (4-10).

So yes, there have been some tragic greek performances in the past (which might not have happened without the contract system btw), but please be fair and mention the weak performances by spanish teams as well. You'll actually find such performances by teams from most countries - and it's only the 2nd year in a row where all spanish teams qualified for the Top16 (only one greek team missed the Top16 in those two years btw: AEK).

And I've also posted some stats in this thread about F4 appearances/titles won, which clearly show that spanish teams did not dominate the competition in the last 11 seasons at all.
Once again, I think that nobody will deny that the spanish league is the best in Europe atm, with the best infrastructure and the best attendances - but stay objective please, spanish teams didn't have such a huge success in the past that they'd deserve 6 possible places in the EL, at least imho. And this is just the sportive argument, without diversity reasons even being mentioned (I don't think that any country should have 6 possible EL spots with 24 teams overall, this would just be boring).

[qiangdade]

I think that there are 2 points of view here, if you want just the best teams in the best competition, then u know what to do, but if you wanna expand the competition to other countries and give a choice to teams the have less potential/tradition, ok, its another point of view, but i think its a waste of potential

Actually that is exactly my opinion. I want a euroleague where only the best teams play. But since there are some teams that are highly competitive, i wouldn't pick 2 more spanish teams over them. What if spain had 20 el level teams and the rest of europe 4? Whould you pick 20 spanish ones? You gotta have some diversity. As i said, in a 32 team el with qualies it would be another question. But not in 24. There are many teams in europe at the level of pamesa and akasvayu that could build an even stronger rosterif they had the chance to play in the euroleague. Dynamo, Rytas, Kiev, Hapoel to name a few

[T.W.Is.M.]

Actually that is exactly my opinion. I want a euroleague where only the best teams play. But since there are some teams that are highly competitive, i wouldn't pick 2 more spanish teams over them. What if spain had 20 el level teams and the rest of europe 4? Whould you pick 20 spanish ones? You gotta have some diversity. As i said, in a 32 team el with qualies it would be another question. But not in 24. There are many teams in europe at the level of pamesa and akasvayu that could build an even stronger rosterif they had the chance to play in the euroleague. Dynamo, Rytas, Kiev, Hapoel to name a few

In order 2 add 2 that I will mention a football example since UEFA has been so successful in organizing the champions league.No country is allowed 2 have more than 4 teams among the 32 CL teams(in exceptional cases we have seen 5 teams from the same country).Thus they have achieved diversity and increased interest by many countries.The argument that more countries r competitive in football does not stand much imho because in the CL top level clubs come from 3 countries(in the EL top level clubs in the last years have come from 4-5 countries).

[Neozyrus]

Wait, do I get you right that you take Aris performance, plus the AEK and Olympiakos of the past as a reason why Greece should get a guaranteed spot less, while at the same time you propose a 4+2 solution for Spain?

What about Joventut this season, do you think they did much better than Aris? (Badalona 7-7 in the RS / 1-5 Top16 - Aris 6-8 in the RS / 1-5 Top16)

And if you mention the tragic AEK of the 2005-2006 season, please also mention the tragic Estudiantes of the 2004-2005 season (4-10 RS), while Unicaja got eliminated in the RS in the very same season as well (6-8), followed by Real and Barca in the Top16 (both 2-4), so only 1 out of 5 spanish teams made it to the Quarterfinals that year.
In the 2003-2004 season we saw a tragic Unicaja getting eliminated in the RS as well (4-10).

So yes, there have been some tragic greek performances in the past (which might not have happened without the contract system btw), but please be fair and mention the weak performances by spanish teams as well. You'll actually find such performances by teams from most countries - and it's only the 2nd year in a row where all spanish teams qualified for the Top16 (only one greek team missed the Top16 in those two years btw: AEK).

And I've also posted some stats in this thread about F4 appearances/titles won, which clearly show that spanish teams did not dominate the competition in the last 11 seasons at all.
Once again, I think that nobody will deny that the spanish league is the best in Europe atm, with the best infrastructure and the best attendances - but stay objective please, spanish teams didn't have such a huge success in the past that they'd deserve 6 possible places in the EL, at least imho. And this is just the sportive argument, without diversity reasons even being mentioned (I don't think that any country should have 6 possible EL spots with 24 teams overall, this would just be boring).



Thats not the main reason, its only part of it, what i meant is that in the last years normally only 2 of their 3 teams have done it good enough to win a permanent spot. The year of Aris in my opinion was more than acceptable, so as i said before, if he continues that way, why would greece have 3+1 for example or 4 or whatever, its just about improving the quality of the teams.

Jouventut in my opinion did a slightly better campaign than Aris in a group clearly more difficult than the Aris one. The group of jouventut was , by far, the more equalized. U had there Pao, Maccabi (in his worst version in years i admit it), unicaja, and the best versions in years of Rome and the adriatic teams. In the group of aris you have CSKA, the worst versions in years of Benetton and Barca, Pau Orthez!, the worst team of EL (zalguiris), a absolutely destroyed team(fenerbasche-ulker), so pls dont compare the groups.




Ok lets put it this way, you wanna give a third spot to the greek league, aris is right now (ther last 2 years aprox) recovering after some years of some irregularity, imagine next year that spot would go to panionios instead (4th in the regular season and disputing the semifinals). I saw the Girona-Panionios round and what i saw was a team that only a miracle would give him a playoff spot in ACB, so in my opinion giving the oportinuity of a 3rd permanent spot to a country in which that is possible... i dont know, i think is more fair give it a 2+1. Thats the main difference i what im basing my choice.

If you have asked me about 5 years ago i would have told u that spain woulnt deserve no more than 3 spots while italy should have 5 or more, if you asked me 8-9 years ago i would have said the same about greece, but right now is ACB turn, if Hapoel, Lietuvos..etc would have really wanted to enter in the EL permanently, they would have won the UlebCup or they would have played better in their home competitions, so they would be telling the world they are ready for an extra spot for their country. I agree they are good teams, but EL must not be the trainig camp to see if a team is capable of or not of doing a nice performance there. If a team goes to euroleague, it must assure a minimum ammount of quality, quality that would have demostrated in his league or in uleb of fiba eurocup before. The teams that should go to the euroleague, u must be secure that they are gonna do a fine job, if u are not sure, then they have not that level.

But, u know this is not a inmovable distribution, its a “rtight now” distribution, it could change every 2-3 years. Right now i think Spain should deserve 4+2 places in EL. In 3 years time who knows, maybe Luxemburg would deserve them. ;)
So objetively, with the level demostrated by spanish teams, in the last couple/three years, its more than justified.

I can understand it could be boring for others countries, and i admit thats a reason to limitate the number of clubs of the same country, but that doesnt mean that, objetively, they wouldnt deserve those posts

[Neozyrus]

Actually that is exactly my opinion. I want a euroleague where only the best teams play. But since there are some teams that are highly competitive, i wouldn't pick 2 more spanish teams over them. What if spain had 20 el level teams and the rest of europe 4? Whould you pick 20 spanish ones? You gotta have some diversity. As i said, in a 32 team el with qualies it would be another question. But not in 24. There are many teams in europe at the level of pamesa and akasvayu that could build an even stronger rosterif they had the chance to play in the euroleague. Dynamo, Rytas, Kiev, Hapoel to name a few


Actyually i think that many more than 6 teams of ACB could do a good preformance in El, or at least, better than some actual participants, but i think that 4+2 is a fair distribution.

And the teams u said are contemplated in tyhe distribution i said
Dynamo (2nd/3rd spot for Russia), Kiev (spot of Ukariane), Rytas or Hapoel, (+1 of Lithuania or Israel). Cause if they have the same level that Pamesa or Akasvayu, and those probably would fit in the +2 spots of Spain, why would they deserve a permanent spot?

[Trifilli]

Jouventut in my opinion did a slightly better campaign than Aris in a group clearly more difficult than the Aris one. The group of jouventut was , by far, the more equalized. U had there Pao, Maccabi (in his worst version in years i admit it), unicaja, and the best versions in years of Rome and the adriatic teams. In the group of aris you have CSKA, the worst versions in years of Benetton and Barca, Pau Orthez!, the worst team of EL (zalguiris), a absolutely destroyed team(fenerbasche-ulker), so pls dont compare the groups.

Sure, Joventud was in the stronger group (at least imo, before the EL started everybody here claimed that Group B was the easiest ;) ), but in the Top16 both teams ended up 1-5, with Aris being a bit unlucky as well, losing 3 games with 2 points or less. Overall there wasn't much of a difference between the worst greek and the worst spanish team.


Ok lets put it this way, you wanna give a third spot to the greek league, aris is right now (ther last 2 years aprox) recovering after some years of some irregularity, imagine next year that spot would go to panionios instead (4th in the regular season and disputing the semifinals). I saw the Girona-Panionios round and what i saw was a team that only a miracle would give him a playoff spot in ACB, so in my opinion giving the oportinuity of a 3rd permanent spot to a country in which that is possible... i dont know, i think is more fair give it a 2+1. Thats the main difference i what im basing my choice.

Sorry that I have to say this - but the only thing your Girona example proves is that you don't really follow the greek league. Basing your opinion of a teams strength on one series is just wrong, currently Panionios (now that they have a PG again) is playing really good basketball and is in a much better shape than Aris for example. I don't know how they would do in the EL, but saying that they couldn't play in the ACB with a miracle only is pretty funny - and I follow the ACB frequently. I don't want to say that a 2+1 solution (in case of a qualification round) wouldn't be fair though - my point is more about Spain.
But if you want to judge a team on one series, why would you think that Gran Canaria (6th placed in the ACB) should have an EL spot instead of teams like FMP or Hemofarm (remember that you proposed a 2+1 solution for the Adriactic League, which means that 3 teams out of Partizan, Crvena Zvezda, Hemofarm, FMP, Cibona and Olimpija would be left out - just wrong imo)?


If you have asked me about 5 years ago i would have told u that spain woulnt deserve no more than 3 spots while italy should have 5 or more, if you asked me 8-9 years ago i would have said the same about greece, but right now is ACB turn, if Hapoel, Lietuvos..etc would have really wanted to enter in the EL permanently, they would have won the UlebCup or they would have played better in their home competitions, so they would be telling the world they are ready for an extra spot for their country. I agree they are good teams, but EL must not be the trainig camp to see if a team is capable of or not of doing a nice performance there. If a team goes to euroleague, it must assure a minimum ammount of quality, quality that would have demostrated in his league or in uleb of fiba eurocup before. The teams that should go to the euroleague, u must be secure that they are gonna do a fine job, if u are not sure, then they have not that level.

Well, overall I agree with you on most points - but you don't mention my stats with a single word. Why would you give 6 possible spots to a country that could bring only 1 out of 5 teams to the Quarterfinals in the 2004-2005 season? As you said, the EL is not a training camp, so what did Estudiantes do there? And why did it take Unicaja so many seasons until they could finally reach the Top16?
Please understand that if a country has several spots there's always the chance that a team might not do that well, it's normal. And please be fair and see that this has also been the case with spanish teams in the very recent past. Like I said before, I have no real problem with a 2+1 solution for Greece (you even proposed a 2+2 - I'd have no problem at all with that), I have a problem with a 4+2 solution for Spain. There's no point for that, and it looks a bit biased when you propose a 2+1 solution for Italy (which did much better than Spain in the last 11 seasons) at the very same time, only because of their recent weakness.


But, u know this is not a inmovable distribution, its a “rtight now” distribution, it could change every 2-3 years. Right now i think Spain should deserve 4+2 places in EL. In 3 years time who knows, maybe Luxemburg would deserve them. ;)
So objetively, with the level demostrated by spanish teams, in the last couple/three years, its more than justified.

I can understand it could be boring for others countries, and i admit thats a reason to limitate the number of clubs of the same country, but that doesnt mean that, objetively, they wouldnt deserve those posts

You claim that it is more than justified because of the spanish teams level in the past three years, although I gave you the example of the 2004-2005 season? What is objective about that? Spain had very good results in the last two seasons, qualifying all teams to the Top16 and having two teams in the F4 in both seasons. But before that they didn't do that well, in 2004-2005 Spain brought only 3 out of 5 teams to the Top16 and 1 out of 5 to the Quarterfinals, so how can you talk about the last three years?
Don't get me wrong, I really think that the spanish league is the best and that they should have more EL spots than the rest - but 4+2 is just too much.

[CG]

By the way, and i know its not the correct forum to do this, congrats to all Pao fans, and amazing team and an amazing final. In Spain it was published in an article: "Diamantidis won the trophy and Papaloukas the legend". i think it was quite apropiate. Congratulations


thnks man:D

[Neozyrus]

Sure, Joventud was in the stronger group (at least imo, before the EL started everybody here claimed that Group B was the easiest ;) ), but in the Top16 both teams ended up 1-5, with Aris being a bit unlucky as well, losing 3 games with 2 points or less. Overall there wasn't much of a difference between the worst greek and the worst spanish team. .

Hahaha, as i said, for me it was slightly better the dkv than the aris, but actually i see some similarities in the the progression of both teams in the last years. But for joventut is fair also to say that Barton and Betts (2 starting five players) missed almost the half of the games, Archibald played injured almost the same quantity...etc
By the way u should say Joventut, if a joventut fan sees u writing the d at the end, he could get really mad at u ;) ;)



Sorry that I have to say this - but the only thing your Girona example proves is that you don't really follow the greek league. Basing your opinion of a teams strength on one series is just wrong, currently Panionios (now that they have a PG again) is playing really good basketball and is in a much better shape than Aris for example. I don't know how they would do in the EL, but saying that they couldn't play in the ACB with a miracle only is pretty funny - and I follow the ACB frequently. I don't want to say that a 2+1 solution (in case of a qualification round) wouldn't be fair though - my point is more about Spain.
But if you want to judge a team on one series, why would you think that Gran Canaria (6th placed in the ACB) should have an EL spot instead of teams like FMP or Hemofarm (remember that you proposed a 2+1 solution for the Adriactic League, which means that 3 teams out of Partizan, Crvena Zvezda, Hemofarm, FMP, Cibona and Olimpija would be left out - just wrong imo)? .

Actually i do follow the greek league, although i admit not as much as i would like (by the way if you could tell me some extra sites were to watch greek playoffs pls tell me). and thats the reason why i was so surprised, to see a team that is doing a good campaign in Greece fall down so noisily. And i watched some games of Panionios in greek league and they played quite well, but nothing close to really good basketball (right now i remember one of the last of the regular season vs marousi in which they played quite slow and predictable, i suppose it was another exception). and pls, i beg u to read again what i wrote, i didnt said that it couldnt play in ACB, i said that a team that plays like that, would have really difficult to enter in the playoffs in ACB. And of course i dont judge Panionios for that round, a team that makes fourth in greek league cannot be that bad, but muy point is that this kind of breakdowns, although is a little exagerated, illustrates the level of both teams.

And about the gran canaria, nothing to say there, it was a fair vistory of fmp the same that were the victories of cska and pao in f4, spanish teams cant win always, but it is also very easy to see, that gran canaria could win (not without suffering) cibona, hemofarm, fmp... any day of the week, why? because they are on his same level, and if the level of granca is actually to fight to get one of the +2 posts of the acb, i think that, if they are of the same level, or maybe slighly superior, that 2 permantent spots +1 for those teams is a quite fair distribution. And no offense to slovenian friends but: Olimpija? i would prefer a team that is not so doutbul to dissapear in the middle of a competition ;)




Well, overall I agree with you on most points - but you don't mention my stats with a single word. Why would you give 6 possible spots to a country that could bring only 1 out of 5 teams to the Quarterfinals in the 2004-2005 season? As you said, the EL is not a training camp, so what did Estudiantes do there? And why did it take Unicaja so many seasons until they could finally reach the Top16?
Please understand that if a country has several spots there's always the chance that a team might not do that well, it's normal. And please be fair and see that this has also been the case with spanish teams in the very recent past. Like I said before, I have no real problem with a 2+1 solution for Greece (you even proposed a 2+2 - I'd have no problem at all with that), I have a problem with a 4+2 solution for Spain. There's no point for that, and it looks a bit biased when you propose a 2+1 solution for Italy (which did much better than Spain in the last 11 seasons) at the very same time, only because of their recent weakness.


You claim that it is more than justified because of the spanish teams level in the past three years, although I gave you the example of the 2004-2005 season? What is objective about that? Spain had very good results in the last two seasons, qualifying all teams to the Top16 and having two teams in the F4 in both seasons. But before that they didn't do that well, in 2004-2005 Spain brought only 3 out of 5 teams to the Top16 and 1 out of 5 to the Quarterfinals, so how can you talk about the last three years?
Don't get me wrong, I really think that the spanish league is the best and that they should have more EL spots than the rest - but 4+2 is just too much.



Again i say that theres is not perfection in here, i remember the bad season the estudiantes did, or the horrible eightfinals of spanish teams, i agree absolutely with u in those points, but it is not only about EL, in order to distribute the posts you should also see the uleb and the fibe eurocup, if you see a team that one years went to the final of the uleb and the next is in top16 of EL (Aris), thats a good point for greek league, the same u could say about dynamo or unics, ot if you see a country that in 2 f4 of fiba eurocup put 3 teams , its another good point for that country (Ukraine), u see my point? At the end of those 3 years you evaluate all those results and you could distribute the spots again. And if a country win 2 fiba ec, 1 uleb and put 4 teams in f4, all that, in 2 years, i think the chances of finding a bad/dissappointing team in that league are much lower than in other leagues

And of course all this is based in recent times, u cannot distribute an actual competition basing on ancient stats. So thats why i didnt mention your stadistics but i did refer to them when i said that the spots should be redestributed each 2-3 years, you cannot distribute the spots basing in the results of 10 seasons ago, so that why i said that right now spain deserves those spots, but in 2-3 years time? dont know, maybe greece deserves them, maybe poland, maybe vatican city....

[Trifilli]

And about the gran canaria, nothing to say there, it was a fair vistory of fmp the same that were the victories of cska and pao in f4, spanish teams cant win always, but it is also very easy to see, that gran canaria could win (not without suffering) cibona, hemofarm, fmp... any day of the week, why? because they are on his same level, and if the level of granca is actually to fight to get one of the +2 posts of the acb, i think that, if they are of the same level, or maybe slighly superior, that 2 permantent spots +1 for those teams is a quite fair distribution. And no offense to slovenian friends but: Olimpija? i would prefer a team that is not so doutbul to dissapear in the middle of a competition ;)

Why would it be fair for Gran Canaria to be the 6th spanish team over FMP to be the 4th from the AL, when those teams are about on the same level? (Besides the fact that the countries forming the AL wouldn't accept such a solution) I just don't get that logic. What did Gran Canaria (or other smaller spanish sides) do to deserve such a 6th spot?


Again i say that theres is not perfection in here, i remember the bad season the estudiantes did, or the horrible eightfinals of spanish teams, i agree absolutely with u in those points, but it is not only about EL, in order to distribute the posts you should also see the uleb and the fibe eurocup, if you see a team that one years went to the final of the uleb and the next is in top16 of EL (Aris), thats a good point for greek league, the same u could say about dynamo or unics, ot if you see a country that in 2 f4 of fiba eurocup put 3 teams , its another good point for that country (Ukraine), u see my point? At the end of those 3 years you evaluate all those results and you could distribute the spots again.

Well, I don't see where I disagree, I also want strong teams in the EL, I just don't think that Spain deserves 6 spots, I don't see where they should've earned such an exceptional number.


And if a country win 2 fiba ec, 1 uleb and put 4 teams in f4, all that, in 2 years, i think the chances of finding a bad/dissappointing team in that league are much lower than in other leagues

Well, you're right that Spain had good results in the FIBA EC, plus Real won the ULEB Cup this season. On the other hand, the 2nd spanish team this year (Gran Canaria) didn't really show why they should get an additional EL spot (which they would get in your proposal as 6th placed spanish team). And last season only one of the two spanish teams reached the eightfinals and got eliminated by Hemofarm there.


And of course all this is based in recent times, u cannot distribute an actual competition basing on ancient stats. So thats why i didnt mention your stadistics but i did refer to them when i said that the spots should be redestributed each 2-3 years, you cannot distribute the spots basing in the results of 10 seasons ago, so that why i said that right now spain deserves those spots, but in 2-3 years time? dont know, maybe greece deserves them, maybe poland, maybe vatican city....

Ancient stats? I think I gave enough examples of the very recent past. I'm also not saying that Spains results were bad - in fact they were good, just not good enough to give them 3 more potential spots than Italy and the AL for example, or 2 more than Greece.
I think that Spain should have 3+1 spots in a qualification system, with Greece, Italy and Russia all having 2+1. Actually there can't be too many teams fighting for EL qualification, because it's going to be difficult to find enough time to play all these qualification games.

And in addition to these sportive reasons there are still the (in my eyes even more important) diversity reasons. It'd be bad for the league if 1/4th of the teams potentially came from one country. But, luckily Bertomeu (or any other ULEB official) can't decide that on his own anyways, as there are big clubs from other countries as well, who have a bit of influence and a word or two to say about the issue.

[Neozyrus]

Why would it be fair for Gran Canaria to be the 6th spanish team over FMP to be the 4th from the AL, when those teams are about on the same level? (Besides the fact that the countries forming the AL wouldn't accept such a solution) I just don't get that logic. What did Gran Canaria (or other smaller spanish sides) do to deserve such a 6th spot?

Well, I don't see where I disagree, I also want strong teams in the EL, I just don't think that Spain deserves 6 spots, I don't see where they should've earned such an exceptional number. .


Its not 6 posts theyre just 4. And the other 2 that would be probably be akasvayu, granca, pamesa...etc would have to fight his right to be in the final draw with other teams of their same potential as fmp, hemofarm, hapoel, lietuvos...etc. Thats all, its about being fair with the level of basketball of each team



Well, you're right that Spain had good results in the FIBA EC, plus Real won the ULEB Cup this season. On the other hand, the 2nd spanish team this year (Gran Canaria) didn't really show why they should get an additional EL spot (which they would get in your proposal as 6th placed spanish team). And last season only one of the two spanish teams reached the eightfinals and got eliminated by Hemofarm there. .

Yeah and on the other hand you have unicaja (7th in league) that was face to face with CSKA in f4 during 32 min and without his most dominant player (Santiago), if you took that example, you could think that in Spain at least 4 teams must be better than CSKA dont u? And nothing more far from reality.
If spanish teams would have reached all the finals this would be no longer europe, this would be a bigger acb. Gran canaria had bad luck to find very early a team of his same level. If u remember that games it was gran canaria who was almost qualified all the time, but in the final moments fmp was simply better. Thats what happens with teams of more or less the same level



Ancient stats? I think I gave enough examples of the very recent past. I'm also not saying that Spains results were bad - in fact they were good, just not good enough to give them 3 more potential spots than Italy and the AL for example, or 2 more than Greece. .

ok lets put it this way, the first 3 of Italy right now i think that would be at the same level, if not lower, than the 4th 5th and 6th of Spain, so thats the reason of the distribution with italy, and apart of Pao and Oly, the same would go with Greece.


I think that Spain should have 3+1 spots in a qualification system, with Greece, Italy and Russia all having 2+1. Actually there can't be too many teams fighting for EL qualification, because it's going to be difficult to find enough time to play all these qualification games.

And in addition to these sportive reasons there are still the (in my eyes even more important) diversity reasons. It'd be bad for the league if 1/4th of the teams potentially came from one country. But, luckily Bertomeu (or any other ULEB official) can't decide that on his own anyways, as there are big clubs from other countries as well, who have a bit of influence and a word or two to say about the issue.

In my opinion there is always time to play these games, for example start the euroleague a little earlier and finish it a little later.
And as i said, if its for diversity reasons, we agree in that, but the level of euroleague would be lower.

[Trifilli]

Its not 6 posts theyre just 4. And the other 2 that would be probably be akasvayu, granca, pamesa...etc would have to fight his right to be in the final draw with other teams of their same potential as fmp, hemofarm, hapoel, lietuvos...etc. Thats all, its about being fair with the level of basketball of each team

It's 4+2, which means 4 guaranteed and 2 qualification spots. Which makes it 6 potential spots. Which is too much compared to the spots you want to give to other countries imo, based on already named examples from the recent past. But I don't think that we'll agree on anything here. You just happen to think that the spanish teams were that successful that they deserve 6 potential spots in a 24 club competition, while I don't think so.


If spanish teams would have reached all the finals this would be no longer europe, this would be a bigger acb.

My point is that spanish teams didn't dominate as much as to justify such an exceptional number of EL spots, compared to other countries.



Gran canaria had bad luck to find very early a team of his same level. If u remember that games it was gran canaria who was almost qualified all the time, but in the final moments fmp was simply better. Thats what happens with teams of more or less the same level

Bad luck? They didn't play well in the regular season, therfore only came in 4th place and played a 1st placed team for that reason in the Eightfinals. No bad luck about that.

But I think it's time to end that discussion, we won't come to an agreement on the sportive issue anyways, no matter how long this continues. You believe that Spain deserves 6 potential spots, I don't think so. I also don't think that the EL level would be lower with 4 instead of 6 spanish teams (at least if teams from the countries I have in mind would play instead of them).
At least we agree on the diversity reasons.

[LuDux]

I'm 99% sure that system won't be changed for next season or 2 and after that EL will expanded. You guys should talk about 32 team EL

[Neozyrus]

It's 4+2, which means 4 guaranteed and 2 qualification spots. Which makes it 6 potential spots. Which is too much compared to the spots you want to give to other countries imo, based on already named examples from the recent past. But I don't think that we'll agree on anything here. You just happen to think that the spanish teams were that successful that they deserve 6 potential spots in a 24 club competition, while I don't think so.



My point is that spanish teams didn't dominate as much as to justify such an exceptional number of EL spots, compared to other countries.



Bad luck? They didn't play well in the regular season, therfore only came in 4th place and played a 1st placed team for that reason in the Eightfinals. No bad luck about that.

But I think it's time to end that discussion, we won't come to an agreement on the sportive issue anyways, no matter how long this continues. You believe that Spain deserves 6 potential spots, I don't think so. I also don't think that the EL level would be lower with 4 instead of 6 spanish teams (at least if teams from the countries I have in mind would play instead of them).
At least we agree on the diversity reasons.

Yeah, we better finish it now, cause u have your opinion and i have mine, thats all. Anyway its quite obvious that the actual distribution must be renewed, cause its a duty for any competition to be prepared to renew itself anytime is highly requested/needed.

[rayo1985]

I'm very happy that my thread is now very popular, ty. Now we can write the team who for 100% are participating on Euroleague 2007/2008, my list include:
1 Żalgiris
2 Lietuvos
3 Real
4 Montepashi
5 Lottomatica
6 Efes
7 FenerUlker
8 Panathinaikos
9 Olimpiakos
10 Nancy ??
11 Salone/Chaone ??
Thats all for now ... whats I know...

[Victorious]

I think the Italian League is underestimated even though they have had a couple of bad seasons. Yes, Benetton was not nearly as good as we were used to but they finished 10th in the Italian League. So I dont feel that we are in a priveleged position to judge the entire league.

The best teams this season in the Italian League where Vidi Vici Bologna and Montepaschi Siena. Neither of them participated in the Euroleague. The third one is Lottomatica Roma and they werent that bad at all. I am sure that Montepaschi and Vidi Vici would have been competative had they been in the Euroleague.

[olympiakara19]

The teams which qualify for the ULEB Euroleague 2008 are:
OLYMPIAKOS PIRAEUS
PANATHINAIKOS ATHENS
TAU KERAMICA VITORIA
UNICAJA MALAGA
REAL MADRID
MONTEPASHI SIENA
SARTHE LE MANS
EFES PILSEN ISTANBUL
FENERBAHCE ISTANBUL
CIBONA ZAGREB
OLIMPIJA LJUBLJANA
ZALGIRIS KAUNAS
CSKA MOSCOW
MACCABI TEL AVIV

[FRANKY 13]

I think the Italian League is underestimated even though they have had a couple of bad seasons. Yes, Benetton was not nearly as good as we were used to but they finished 10th in the Italian League. So I dont feel that we are in a priveleged position to judge the entire league.

The best teams this season in the Italian League where Vidi Vici Bologna and Montepaschi Siena. Neither of them participated in the Euroleague. The third one is Lottomatica Roma and they werent that bad at all. I am sure that Montepaschi and Vidi Vici would have been competative had they been in the Euroleague.

Yep but I think benetton finished 10th because of the points they lost, due to the scandal, or am I wrong?

[Victorious]

Yep but I think benetton finished 10th because of the points they lost, due to the scandal, or am I wrong?

Yes, I forgot about that.But it's not just Benetton it's also Fortitudo which was no good in the It. league. Either way I made my point.

[PHILIPeurobasket]

Benetton no longer in Treviso?
After what was probably one of their worst seasons in club history, Benetton Treviso face many changes. Besides changes to the roster, Benetton might even change their home and move to another city.
Team’s chairman, Mr. Gilberto Benetton, is thinking about a move to Pantova, a city close to Venice, where his team would play in the Palavento Arena (capacity 9000).
Source and more: http://crobasket.com/main.asp?P=Vijest&hn=naslovnica&J=ENG&VijestID=14921

[-K2-]

if england playing...

can we? :rolleyes:

[Akis]

We have a strange situation this season. Benetton, Climamio and TAU lost their 3 year contracts cause they did not qualify to play offs so nobody knows surely how they are going to be replaced. Normally their replacements will be from their domestic league standings. Assuming this the new euroleague will look like this:

Spain: TAU(c), Unicaja(c), Real Madrid. The candicates for the other spot are Barcelona (TAU-Barcelona will play in best of 5 semis series) and Joventut-Gran Canaria (are tied 2-2 in quarters, winner will play again Real in semis) As I know there are not games for 3rd place so normally the eliminated club of semis that was higher in regular season will be considered as third. In this case if TAU and Real qualify to final 4th spot goes to Joventut if qualify to semis or to Barcelona if Gran Canaria beat Joventut, if Real qualify to final and TAU lose to Barcelona Barcelona will be take the 4th spot, if TAU qualify to final and Real not the Joventut/Gran Canaria will take 4th spot, if both TAU and Real are eliminated then there will be 5 spanish clubs in next euroleague (Barcelona and Joventut/Gran Canaria will earn these spots). It is also possible uleb to give 5 spots to Spain if TAU and Joventut/Gran Canaria are in finals and consider Barca as 3rd since Real has the uleb cup spot (don't forget that uleb is run by spaniards and Barca is a big name to leave it out of euroleague)

Italy: Montepaschi, Armani, Lottomatica and Vidivici are in semis and will probably take the 4 spots. Montapaschi has taken it for sure so if Climanio's and Benetton's lost contracts are given based on domestic results the rest 3 clubs have earned them also no matter the rest results of italian league.

Greece: Panathinaikos(c), Olympiakos(c). Third spot will probably go to Aris. Aris is currently leading 2-1 in semis to Olympiakos in best of 5 series and needs one win in the remaining 2 games against Olympiakos (30/5 in Athens, 2/6 in Thessaloniki if needed) to qualify to greek final and euroleague. In case Olympiakos qualify to final the winner of Aris-Panionios (best of 5 series Aris has homecourt advantage) will take the spot to euroleague.

Turkey: Efes Pilsen(c), Fenerbachce (not sure if they have 3 years contract but already are playing to final against Efes Pilsen so their spot is sure)

France: Nancy and Roanne are playing is single game final !!!!(2/6) Since PAU lost the 3 years contract normally both of them will play in euroleague unless ULEB has different criteria in the way clubs that lost contracts will be replaced. The only sure is winner of final will play in euroleague.

Russia: CSKA(c)

Israel: Maccabi(c)

Lithuania: Zalgiris(c)

Slovenia: Olympia(c)

Croatia: Cibona(c)

Serbia: Still are playing regular season games !!

Germany: Still are in quarters and only Artland qualified by beating 3-0 Alba !! The remaining pairs are Bremerhaven-RheinEnergie 2-1, Ludwigsburg-Bayer Giants 2-1 and Brose Baskets-Telekom Baskets Bonn 2-1.

Poland: Prokom is leading 3-1 to Turow in best of 7 series

Uleb cup: Real Madrid or Lietuvos Rytas is Real earn euroleague spot via spanish league.

[lafa]

It is also possible uleb to give 5 spots to Spain if TAU and Joventut/Gran Canaria are in finals and consider Barca as 3rd since Real has the uleb cup spot (don't forget that uleb is run by spaniards and Barca is a big name to leave it out of euroleague)


Even though ULEB is run by Bartolomeu, he told himself that if Real qualifies to the EL from ACB, the vacant spot that usually goes to ULEB cup winner will be given to the ULEB Cup finalist, which is Lietuvos Rytas.

[Buducnost PG]

We have a strange situation this season. Benetton, Climamio and TAU lost their 3 year contracts cause they did not qualify to play offs so nobody knows surely how they are going to be replaced. Normally their replacements will be from their domestic league standings. Assuming this the new euroleague will look like this:

This is wrong. Tau is in the 1/2 final of the spanish league and was 1st afte the season ends. Malaga was the team on the bubble, but they were 8th at the end and so will play in the EL next season again.

[Digdis]

This is wrong. Tau is in the 1/2 final of the spanish league and was 1st afte the season ends. Malaga was the team on the bubble, but they were 8th at the end and so will play in the EL next season again.
I think he means PAU.

[Akis]

Even though ULEB is run by Bartolomeu, he told himself that if Real qualifies to the EL from ACB, the vacant spot that usually goes to ULEB cup winner will be given to the ULEB Cup finalist, which is Lietuvos Rytas.

Yes he told it but they can do it in different way. Supposing Joventut and TAU qualify to finals it means that Real and Barca will be ranked 3rd and 4th (Real should take 3rd place since was higher in regular season). Spanish league which of course wants 5 spanish clubs in euroleague decides games for 3rd place in which games Real doesnt care so Barca wins series. In this scenario the 2 spanish spots to EL goes to the the best 2 clubs without 3 year contracts which are Joventut and Barca so Real uses uleb cup's spot. Is it hard to happen ?

[lafa]

Yes he told it but they can do it in different way. Supposing Joventut and TAU qualify to finals it means that Real and Barca will be ranked 3rd and 4th (Real should take 3rd place since was higher in regular season). Spanish league which of course wants 5 spanish clubs in euroleague decides games for 3rd place in which games Real doesnt care so Barca wins series. In this scenario the 2 spanish spots to EL goes to the the best 2 clubs without 3 year contracts which are Joventut and Barca so Real uses uleb cup's spot. Is it hard to happen ?

Yes it is hard. As a matter of fact it is impossible situation, since there's no series for a 3rd place in ACB. Team with a better regular season result is awarded 3rd place automatically, so if Real and Barca didn't make final, Real would be 3rd and Barca goes to ULEB Cup. Plus ULEB has strict regulations, that any country could delegate no more than 4 teams into EL. I believe russian teams like Dynamo Moscow or Uniks Kazan have more chances to play in EL next year than 5th team from Spain. But I'm an optimist, and believe that Bartolomeu is a man of his word, and in case Real makes it to EL through ACB, Rytas will be awarded the vacant spot.

[Nimonas]

Yes it is hard. As a matter of fact it is impossible situation, since there's no series for a 3rd place in ACB. Team with a better regular season result is awarded 3rd place automatically, so if Real and Barca didn't make final, Real would be 3rd and Barca goes to ULEB Cup. Plus ULEB has strict regulations, that any country could delegate no more than 4 teams into EL. I believe russian teams like Dynamo Moscow or Uniks Kazan have more chances to play in EL next year than 5th team from Spain. But I'm an optimist, and believe that Bartolomeu is a man of his word, and in case Real makes it to EL through ACB, Rytas will be awarded the vacant spot.

ULEB has it's own points system. 3rd place will be awarded after all points are calculated. Now Real has more points than Barca.

About Dinamo Moscow: no way they'll get the spot. Think about it: what is worth Euroleague ranking, if anybody can buy a spot? As much as Bartomeu loves money he isn't crazy enough to do such a disaster.

[lafa]

ULEB has it's own points system. 3rd place will be awarded after all points are calculated. Now Real has more points than Barca.

That is not true. They simply have better regular season record so they are superior to Barca, Grand Canaria or Juventut, if Real and any other mentioned team wouldn't make it to the finals.


About Dinamo Moscow: no way they'll get the spot. Think about it: what is worth Euroleague ranking, if anybody can buy a spot? As much as Bartomeu loves money he isn't crazy enough to do such a disaster.
I wouldn't bet on that. They could make an "exception"... since ULEB cannot allow 5th spanish team into EL... etc... BTW, what EL ranking are you talking about? The one that is applied to LKL?

[Akis]

Plus ULEB has strict regulations, that any country could delegate no more than 4 teams into EL. I believe russian teams like Dynamo Moscow or Uniks Kazan have more chances to play in EL next year than 5th team from Spain. But I'm an optimist, and believe that Bartolomeu is a man of his word, and in case Real makes it to EL through ACB, Rytas will be awarded the vacant spot.

There can be 5 clubs from a same country. It is forbitten to have 5 clubs from same country in EL except when 5th club earns spot through UC. Russian clubs or clubs of other countries cannot hope to take UC spot. They only way to have clubs from other countries is uleb to decide to not give the spots of the 3 clubs which lost the 3 year contracts to clubs of same country. This mean that Italy or France will have less spots so I find it hard to happen

[olympiakara19]

France: Nancy and Roanne are playing is single game final !!!!(2/6) Since PAU lost the 3 years contract normally both of them will play in euroleague unless ULEB has different criteria in the way clubs that lost contracts will be replaced. The only sure is winner of final will play in euroleague.

[olympiakara19]

I think that le mans has 3years contract and no pau orthez
So the winner of french league and Le Mans will have the spots of euroleague 2008

[olympiakara19]

So the teams for ULEB euroleague 2008 are:
Olympiakos Piraeus
Panathinaikos Athens
Aris Thessaloniki or Panionios Athens
Montepashi Siena
Virtus Bologna
Virtus Roma
Olimpia Milano
CSKA Moscow
Maccabi Tel Aviv
SLUC Nancy or Roanne
Sarthe Le Mans
Efes Pilsen Istanbul
Fenerbahce Ustanbul
Real Madrid
Tau Keramica Vitoria
Unicaja Malaga
Barcelona or Joventut Badalona or Gran Canaria
Prokom Trefl Sopot
Olimpija Ljublana
Cibona Zagreb
Zalgiris Kaunas
Lietuvos Rytas Vilnius
Serbian Champion
German Champion

[Nimonas]

That is not true. They simply have better regular season record so they are superior to Barca, Grand Canaria or Juventut, if Real and any other mentioned team wouldn't make it to the finals.

I wouldn't bet on that. They could make an "exception"... since ULEB cannot allow 5th spanish team into EL... etc... BTW, what EL ranking are you talking about? The one that is applied to LKL?

every country has it's own EL ranking system. i.e. LKL winner gets 15points, 2nd place - 8. maybe ACB winner gets 16 points, 2nd place - 10, I don't know. But this ranking exists.
And, I said incorrectly, not EL ranking will determine which ACB team got 3rd place, ACB will do that. I meant, that EL ranking will determine team, which team will qualifie for Euroleague.

[olympiakara19]

Prokom Trefl Sopot qualified to Euroleague 2008 after winning Turow 4-1

[PHILIPeurobasket]

Prokom Trefl Sopot qualified to Euroleague 2008 after winning Turow 4-1

Before final games we know that ;) Prokom now probably will have Euroleague ticket for next 3 (if I good remember) years ...

[EverGreen]

Why on earth does France get 2 teams and Russia only one?

IMO the Russian League is not worse than then Greek. If anything I think it's a bit better.

[Victorious]

Why on earth does France get 2 teams and Russia only one?

IMO the Russian League is not worse than then Greek. If anything I think it's a bit better.

Did you write that just to get to the 100th post?:D

[sashikas]

Sport-express daily today publishes, that despite the fourth place in the final rankings of the national championship this year, Dynamo Moscow still has chances to play either in Euroleague (by taking place of Olimpija Ljubljana, Lietuvos Rytas Vilnius or some italian team) or get a third place for Russia in ULEB cup (first two spots are taken by Unics Kazan and Khimki Moscow region).

[Joško Poljak Fan]

sashikas, i'd really appreciate a link for that!

[sashikas]

Here you go (http://www.basketball.ru/news/lenta/2007/06/02/news_11193.html)

Edit: I've found the original source. This article was published today in the biggest Russian sports daily. Link (http://www.sport-express.ru/art.shtml?139960)

[Buducnost PG]

Sport-express daily today publishes, that despite the fourth place in the final rankings of the national championship this year, Dynamo Moscow still has chances to play either in Euroleague (by taking place of Olimpija Ljubljana, Lietuvos Rytas Vilnius or some italian team) or get a third place for Russia in ULEB cup (first two spots are taken by Unics Kazan and Khimki Moscow region).

If that happens this will be a big shame from ULEB.

[T.W.Is.M.]

If that happens this will be a big shame from ULEB.

If they play in the EL yes.If they get an extra UC spot it's not bad.Russia deserves more spots in the EL so if they can't get any there, they could have at least an UC one.

[Akis]

Here is the current situation.

Spain: TAU(c), Unicaja(c), Real Madrid. In semis we have till now TAU-Barcelona 2-2 and Real-Joventut 2-2. This mean that any of Barcelona, Joventut win last semi game will qualify. In case both win both earn place to new euroleague in case both loose Barcelona is out while Joventut will take the last spot.

Italy: Montepaschi, Armani, Lottomatica and Vidivici have taken the 4 top places in league and normally will play in next euroleague.

Greece: Panathinaikos(c), Olympiakos(c). The third spot will be given to winner of final for 3rd place. Currently Aris-Panionios 1-1 in best of 5 series.

Turkey: Efes Pilsen(c), Fenerbachce (not sure if they have 3 years contract)

France: Roanne is league winner but still is not sure if they will play in euroleague due to small stadium and low budget. Someone wrote that Le Mans has 3 years contract (I think PAU had it and lost it) so if this is truth will be the other French club. If not or if Roanne will not play in euroleague the Nancy will take part.

Russia: CSKA(c)

Israel: Maccabi(c)

Lithuania: Zalgiris(c)

Slovenia: Olympia(c)

Croatia: Cibona(c)

Serbia: Winner of league will take part in euroleague. Till now is semis Hemofarm-Crvena Cvezda 0-1 FMP-Partizan 0-1 in best of 3 series.

Germany: League winner will play if euroleague too. Currently in semis (best of 5) RheinEnergie-Artland Dragons 1-1 EnBW Ludwigsburg-Brose Baskets 0-2.

Poland: Prokom

Uleb cup: Real Madrid or Lietuvos Rytas is Real earn euroleague spot via spanish league.

[ArnoldPettybone]

Germany: League winner will play if euroleague too. Currently in semis (best of 5) RheinEnergie-Artland Dragons 1-1 EnBW Ludwigsburg-Brose Baskets 0-2.

ludwigsburg wont be in the euroleague even if they win, they dont have enough pts.

[pablonis]

So, after today's semifinals in ACB, two more participants are know and it's none else but:

Barcelona and Lietuvos Rytas :)
________
Beststrip4You (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Beststrip4You/)

[Trifilli]

Germany: League winner will play if euroleague too. Currently in semis (best of 5) RheinEnergie-Artland Dragons 1-1 EnBW Ludwigsburg-Brose Baskets 0-2.


From Germany it'll be either Bamberg (advanced to finals 3-1) or Cologne (tied 2-2 in semifinals vs. Artland), no other possibilities left.

[Yellow69]

Wow, Tau is a bunch of losers. amazing. even if MJ himself will play for this team they won't win anything.

[ArnoldPettybone]

From Germany it'll be either Bamberg (advanced to finals 3-1) or Cologne (tied 2-2 in semifinals vs. Artland), no other possibilities left.
do you know what the tie breaker is in case bamberg win agaisnt cologne? in that case both team will have the same amount of points.

[DanMajerle]

In this case the Champion (Winner of 2007 Finals) will play Euroleague.

[ArnoldPettybone]

In this case the Champion will play Euroleague.
thanks.

[raph]

Here is the current situation.

France: Roanne is league winner but still is not sure if they will play in euroleague due to small stadium and low budget. Someone wrote that Le Mans has 3 years contract (I think PAU had it and lost it) so if this is truth will be the other French club. If not or if Roanne will not play in euroleague the Nancy will take part.


Uleb cup: Real Madrid or Lietuvos Rytas is Real earn euroleague spot via spanish league.

Le Mans has the 3 year ticket, yes. I am from there so it's pretty safe for me to fix your questioning. Pau had previous one but le mans won the title and the ranking last year.
About roanne, nothing to add to what you said. They have up to 20th june to prove uleb that they can qualify to EL standards (at least most). Stadium part seems to be fixed now, remains the budget issues.

Also, rytas should be qualified to EL since real is in final in spain as you said.

[olympiakara19]

So the teams for ULEB euroleague 2008 are:
Olympiakos Piraeus
Panathinaikos Athens
Aris Thessaloniki or Panionios Athens (2-1)
Montepashi Siena
Virtus Bologna
Virtus Roma
Olimpia Milano
CSKA Moscow
Maccabi Tel Aviv
Roanne
Sarthe Le Mans
Efes Pilsen Istanbul
Fenerbahce Ustanbul
Real Madrid
Tau Keramica Vitoria
Unicaja Malaga
Barcelona
Prokom Trefl Sopot
Olimpija Ljublana
Cibona Zagreb
Zalgiris Kaunas
Lietuvos Rytas Vilnius
Partizan Belgrade or Red Star Belgrade
Universa Bamberg or Rhein Koln or Artland Dragons

[Basket_]

Roanne decided to participate ein Euroleague. Home games they will play in Klermon city.
sportalas.com

[T.W.Is.M.]

Aris secured the 3rd greek EL spot by beating Panionios 3-2 in the series for the 3rd place in the greek league.So the only participants left r the german and serbian representatives...

[MikeMaccabiFan]

Partisan raised the lead in final series to 2:0, so their chances are good.

[olympiakara19]

ULEB Euroleague teams 2008:
Pot A
Panathinaikos Athens (GRE)
CSKA Moscow (RUS)
Unicaja Malaga (ESP)
Pot B
Tau Keramica Vitoria (ESP)
Barcelona (ESP)
Maccabi Tel Aviv (ISR)
Pot C
Olympiakos Piraeus (GRE)
Partizan Belgrade* (SER)
Efes Pilsen Istanbul(TUR)
Pot D
Virtus Roma (ITA)
Prokom Trefl Sopot (POL)
Aris Thessaloniki (GRE)
Pot E
Cibona Zagreb (CRO)
Fenerbache Istanbul (TUR)
Sarthe Le Mans (FRA)
Pot F
Olimpija Ljublana (SLO)
Zalgiris Kaunas (LTU)
Real Madrid (ESP)
Pot G
Lietuvos Rytas Vilnius (LTU)
Montepashi Siena (ITA)
Virtus Bologna (ITA)
Pot H
Olimpia Milano (ITA)
Artland Dragons* (GER)
Roanne (FRA)

[Roy M]

ULEB Euroleague teams 2008:
Pot A
Panathinaikos Athens (GRE)
CSKA Moscow (RUS)
Unicaja Malaga (ESP)
Pot B
Tau Keramica Vitoria (ESP)
Barcelona (ESP)
Maccabi Tel Aviv (ISR)
Pot C
Olympiakos Piraeus (GRE)
Partizan Belgrade* (SER)
Efes Pilsen Istanbul(TUR)
Pot D
Virtus Roma (ITA)
Prokom Trefl Sopot (POL)
Aris Thessaloniki (GRE)
Pot E
Cibona Zagreb (CRO)
Fenerbache Istanbul (TUR)
Sarthe Le Mans (FRA)
Pot F
Olimpija Ljublana (SLO)
Zalgiris Kaunas (LTU)
Real Madrid (ESP)
Pot G
Lietuvos Rytas Vilnius (LTU)
Montepashi Siena (ITA)
Virtus Bologna (ITA)
Pot H
Olimpia Milano (ITA)
Artland Dragons* (GER)
Roanne (FRA)

It means, that Maccabi will be with Malaga 100%. neither Barca or Tau can be in Malaga group because of "same country rool".

[Mag]

It means, that Maccabi will be with Malaga 100%. neither Barca or Tau can be in Malaga group because of "same country rool".

How about Real? Out of EL? :)

[Marius123]

ULEB Euroleague teams 2008:
Pot A
Panathinaikos Athens (GRE)
CSKA Moscow (RUS)
Unicaja Malaga (ESP)
Pot B
Tau Keramica Vitoria (ESP)
Barcelona (ESP)
Maccabi Tel Aviv (ISR)
Pot C
Olympiakos Piraeus (GRE)
Partizan Belgrade* (SER)
Efes Pilsen Istanbul(TUR)
Pot D
Virtus Roma (ITA)
Prokom Trefl Sopot (POL)
Aris Thessaloniki (GRE)
Pot E
Cibona Zagreb (CRO)
Fenerbache Istanbul (TUR)
Sarthe Le Mans (FRA)
Pot F
Olimpija Ljublana (SLO)
Zalgiris Kaunas (LTU)
Real Madrid (ESP)
Pot G
Lietuvos Rytas Vilnius (LTU)
Montepashi Siena (ITA)
Virtus Bologna (ITA)
Pot H
Olimpia Milano (ITA)
Artland Dragons* (GER)
Roanne (FRA)

Is this official information concerning drawing pots?

[Limitless]

Pot H
Olimpia Milano (ITA)
Artland Dragons* (GER)
Roanne (FRA)

Artland Dragons can't compete in the Euroleague. Even if they win the Championship in Germany, they won't get the first spot in the German leagues ranking (and won't match any of the EL regulations regarding the gym and everything...). Instead, RheinEnergie Köln will play EL in case of an Artland championship. If Bamberg wins the Championship, they'll play Euroleague.

[Roy M]

How about Real? Out of EL? :)


Real is the forth Spanish team, and can be in any group.
the first three teams in each country must be in the rool.

[sashikas]

J.Bertomeu gave an interview to La Gazzetta dello Sport, where he heavily criticized the situation in Italian basketball. He claimed, that Italy will probably loose one spot in the Euroleague because of Benneton scandal, unsuccessful Climamio performance in the national championship, the fact that three Italian clubs refused to participate in the ULEB cup and overal lazyness of the national league's and particular clubs' management.

Bertomeu is especially angry, because Napoli, Biela and Varese refused to participate in ULEB cup. He evaluated such declinance, as a lack of respect to other clubs, who have forced their way to the Euroleague through the ULEB cup. It is planned in the future, that the club, who have declined to participate in the ULEB club competition, won't be allowed to play in the Euroleague.

According to Bertomeu, this won't be a punishment, but if the club doesn't see itself in the international competition, then there's no place for it in the Euroleague. It is planned, that the 4 team quota for Italy in the Euroleague will lessen to 3, and the additional place will be given in the ULEB cup. So overal number of italian teams in ULEB competitions will remain the same - 6.

Also, Jordi once again confirmed, that since season 2009/2010 the participating clubs will have to play home games in 10000+ arenas. Only positive thing, is that if the host city will be yet in the building progress, then it won't be thrown out of the league.

[Roy M]

Bamberg is the 24th and last team in thr EL next season.

they beat Artland 64-63 and took the Bundesleague champ.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

J.Bertomeu gave an interview to La Gazzetta dello Sport, where he heavily criticized the situation in Italian basketball. He claimed, that Italy will probably loose one spot in the Euroleague because of Benneton scandal, unsuccessful Climamio performance in the national championship, the fact that three Italian clubs refused to participate in the ULEB cup and overal lazyness of the national league's and particular clubs' management.

Bertomeu is especially angry, because Napoli, Biela and Varese refused to participate in ULEB cup. He evaluated such declinance, as a lack of respect to other clubs, who have forced their way to the Euroleague through the ULEB cup. It is planned in the future, that the club, who have declined to participate in the ULEB club competition, won't be allowed to play in the Euroleague.

According to Bertomeu, this won't be a punishment, but if the club doesn't see itself in the international competition, then there's no place for it in the Euroleague. It is planned, that the 4 team quota for Italy in the Euroleague will lessen to 3, and the additional place will be given in the ULEB cup. So overal number of italian teams in ULEB competitions will remain the same - 6.
If I am not mistaken some italian clubs have expressed major unsatisfaction with Uleb. Benneton "scandal" wasn't exactly to some big proportions and there were worse teams than Climamio in EL.

I agree that at this moment italian basketball maybee doesn't deserve 4 teams, but taking one EL spot away from them "just because" is no way to operate, especially in the future. Uleb must come up with a clear and flexible competition system instead.


Also, Jordi once again confirmed, that since season 2009/2010 the participating clubs will have to play home games in 10000+ arenas. Only positive thing, is that if the host city will be yet in the building progress, then it won't be thrown out of the league.
interesting, but I wonder what will happen with Tau, Barcelona, Bologna teams, Siena... afterall they were a big part of recent euroleague history.
If the contracts would be abolished along with it, I don't have anything against 10.000 seated rule though. With that rule there wouldn't be many teams fulfilling the requirements anyway and with contracts alive that would practically lead to almost completely closed league...

[Big Lebowski]

The simple fact that Italy has 4 teams, France and Lithuania have 2 and Russia 1 explains a lot about how retarded ULEB is.

1. Who cares about a 10.000 (9.000) seats arena: what is worth if the quality of the arena. Treviso, example, isn't big at all: but if Treviso has not more than 3500 supporters, why should they build a new one? The Ghirada isn't even a "bad arena" (it's not a Glyfada). Treviso banned for this reason? Idiots.

2. Dynamo Moscow reached EL quarters, Lietuvos UlebCup final. Moscow would have had possibilities to reach the Final Four, Vilnius probably won't reach the top-16 (Lithuanian teams record in top-16: 6-18). 3rd level leagues like Lithuanian or French ones, cannot have more than one team in the EL.

3. Would it be so difficult to allow only teams from the Adriatic League and not from the singular ex-yu championships? Two teams would be enough.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

3. Would it be so difficult to allow only teams from the Adriatic League and not from the singular ex-yu championships? Two teams would be enough.
from a competitive point of view that wouldn't be a problem and would be the right thing to do in a 24team euroleague. But from politics point of view that's more than impossible, it'd end up with adriatic league falling apart and ex-Yu bball federations demanding and achieving more spots in EL and especially UC than Uleb would like to.

I'm all for abolishing that set EL spots and wouldn't mind if Olimpija had to play qualifiers for EL for few seasons, it would be fair, if failing than playing in Uleb cup... as i said Uleb needs a flexible system. Just when they'll take one EL spot away from Italy, they'll probably need a new correction when italian teams start enforcing themselves again. number of teams one nation has in EL should base on the nations succes in Uleb's competitions, not on sucking up on Jordi's a$$... Fiba was waaay ahead of Uleb on that perspective.

[elaj]

2007-08 Euroleague Draw levels and procedure - Euroleague.net (http://www.euroleague.net/news/i/13950/180/item)

LEVELS FOR THE 2007-2008 EUROLEAGUE BASKETBALL REGULAR SEASON GROUP DRAW

1st level - Panathinaikos - CSKA Moscow - Unicaja
2nd level - Tau Ceramica - Winterthur FC Barcelona - Maccabi Elite Tel Aviv
3rd level - Olympiacos - Partizan - Efes Pilsen
4th level - Aris TT Bank - Lottomatica Roma - Prokom Trefl
5th level - Cibona - Fenerbahce Ulker - Union Olimpija
6th level - Le Mans - Zalgiris Kaunas - Real Madrid
7th level - Lietuvos Rytas - Montepaschi Siena - Brose Baskets
8th level - Chorale Roanne - Virtus Bologna - Armani Jeans Milano


The main criteria for the seeding levels is team performance during the the last Euroleague season, starting with teams who had the best results in the Final Four, Quarterfinal and Top 16. The list of seeding levels shows, therefore, that the three top teams from last spring's Final Four - champion Panathinaikos, runner-up CSKA Moscow and third-place Unicaja - cannot face each other when the three regular season groups of eight teams each are selected on Saturday at the draw in Jesolo, Italy which begins at 16:15 CET.

[pablonis]

The simple fact that Italy has 4 teams, France and Lithuania have 2 and Russia 1 explains a lot about how retarded ULEB is.

1. Who cares about a 10.000 (9.000) seats arena: what is worth if the quality of the arena. Treviso, example, isn't big at all: but if Treviso has not more than 3500 supporters, why should they build a new one? The Ghirada isn't even a "bad arena" (it's not a Glyfada). Treviso banned for this reason? Idiots.

2. Dynamo Moscow reached EL quarters, Lietuvos UlebCup final. Moscow would have had possibilities to reach the Final Four, Vilnius probably won't reach the top-16 (Lithuanian teams record in top-16: 6-18). 3rd level leagues like Lithuanian or French ones, cannot have more than one team in the EL.


Just bugger off... i could'v said the same thing last season when Rytas defeated all of europe's elite nearly reaching top8 and was later thrown out of the league. Also, while Dinamo atrackts 300+ supporters to each game, Rytas even in Uleb cup averaged something like 7-8.000 spectators in group stage and nearly 11.000 in playoffs. Sure, Rytas doesnt have russian oil millions supporting it, nor a few fancy greeks or a well known serb as a coach, but that doesnt change the fact that Rytas was and will be again more than just competetive on euroleague level.

Last year Zalgiris sure was a dirgrace for Lithuania, but i'm sure were they playing in euroleague like they did after falling out and changing the coach in second part of the season, 60+% of euroleague teams could'v donne little against the greens.
________
Medical Dispensaries (http://dispensaries.org/)

[Fortitudo]

Russian basketball doesn't exist,their arenas are empty,they have only rich presidents that want to spend their money.
Brindis,in italian third divison,has more attendance than CSKA.
Russian basketball is something artificial.

[Big Lebowski]

Good. Let's put Fossombrone or Brindisi in the Euroleague instead of Dynamo Moscow, because they have fans and not players. You're right: I pay to watch games on tv or live to see the palas, the attendance and not the players. Interesting point of view.

[T.W.Is.M.]

Good. Let's put Fossombrone or Brindisi in the Euroleague instead of Dynamo Moscow, because they have fans and not players. You're right: I pay to watch games on tv or live to see the palas, the attendance and not the players. Interesting point of view.

On the other hand sports is entertainment and if u don't have an audience 2 entertain u lack an important part of the puzzle.England could also have a EL level team if Abramovich bought a London team and signed 12 expensive players.But they would have 300 spectators in each game!Should we put them in the EL too?
It's a fact that a team with no fans can't b in the top 4 a long time.These r the motive 4 someone 2 invest money in a club.I mean, without fan support u can buy expensive players, expensive coaches, build a good team, win a title until u wake up one day and find yourself bored with that game and take your money and move 2 a new one...

[Metec]

I think is is absolutely impossible that bc Kiev or a second russian team will play in the euroleague next season and i don't know how you got the idea it could happen. The participants are fixed:

4 teams spain
4 italy
3 greece
2 turkey
2 france
1 germany
1 lithuania
1 israel
1 slovenia
1 croatia
1 serbia
1 russia
1 poland
1 uleb cup winner/finalist

Euroalegue management sucks!

it's really unfear! 2 years in a row, there is no Italian team in the final four and still italy get 4 tickets.
And how france recieve 2 tickets, Is the French league stronger than the Russian/Israeli/Lithunian league?

In 2004 Maccabi won the Euroleague, And Hapoel Jerusalem won the ULEB cup , but in 2005, Israel still recieve just 2 tickets for euroleague & ulebcup.

ULEB managers destroy the basketball

[re5pectas]

And how france recieve 2 tickets, Is the French league stronger than the Russian/Israeli/Lithunian league?

At least in Lithuania there is a gap between Rytas&Zalgiris and other clubs, so it's difficult to speak about whole level of the league....
Russian superleague - stronger.


In 2004 Maccabi won the Euroleague, And Hapoel Jerusalem won the ULEB cup , but in 2005, Israel still recieve just 2 tickets for euroleague & ulebcup.
Hapoel had the right to play in EL, but they had problems, so noone to blame :)

[raph]

Something that has to be taken into account in their decision stems from tv rights i think. And france is probably still one of the country where rights are pretty high.

Anyway, budget expansion in europe has become such that france can't compete anymore through the last years (in the years before the new EL we were still competitive). Nowadays it's france that does not deserve its place (at least the second ticket and that's something we are pretty aware of) though i am not sure there won't be more discussions anytime soon for some other countries considering the amounts that russian are pouring into their teams. Not sure if it would be interesting to develop a russia vs spain in next years for the EL no matter how interesting are their teams's rosters.

Not necessary easy to fix the issue imo, any solution has its drawbacks.