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Lebron23
10-13-2007, 02:42 AM
Knights Templar win heresy reprieve after 700 years

By Philip Pullella
Fri Oct 12, 4:10 AM ET

http://www.questmagazine.com/knights_templar_battle_weary.jpg

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Knights Templar, the medieval Christian military order accused of heresy and sexual misconduct, will soon be partly rehabilitated when the Vatican publishes trial documents it had closely guarded for 700 years.


A reproduction of the minutes of trials against the Templars, "'Processus Contra Templarios -- Papal Inquiry into the Trial of the Templars"' is a massive work and much more than a book -- with a 5,900 euros ($8,333) price tag.

"This is a milestone because it is the first time that these documents are being released by the Vatican, which gives a stamp of authority to the entire project," said Professor Barbara Frale, a medievalist at the Vatican's Secret Archives.

"Nothing before this offered scholars original documents of the trials of the Templars," she told Reuters in a telephone interview ahead of the official presentation of the work on October 25.

The epic comes in a soft leather case that includes a large-format book including scholarly commentary, reproductions of original parchments in Latin, and -- to tantalize Templar buffs -- replicas of the wax seals used by 14th-century inquisitors.

Reuters was given an advance preview of the work, of which only 799 numbered copies have been made.

One parchment measuring about half a meter wide by some two meters long is so detailed that it includes reproductions of stains and imperfections seen on the originals.

Pope Benedict will be given the first set of the work, published by the Vatican Secret Archives in collaboration with Italy's Scrinium cultural foundation, which acted as curator and will have exclusive world distribution rights.

The Templars, whose full name was "Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon," were founded in 1119 by knights sworn to protecting Christian pilgrims visiting the Holy Land after the Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099.

They amassed enormous wealth and helped finance wars of some European monarchs. Legends of their hidden treasures, secret rituals and power have figured over the years in films and bestsellers such as "The Da Vinci Code."

The Knights have also been portrayed as guardians of the legendary Holy Grail, the cup used by Christ at the Last Supper before his crucifixion.

The Vatican expects most copies of the work to be bought up by specialized libraries at top universities and by leading medieval scholars.

BURNED AT THE STAKE

The Templars went into decline after Muslims re-conquered the Holy Land at the end of the 13th century and were accused of heresy by King Philip IV of France, their foremost persecutor. Their alleged offences included denying Christ and secretly worshipping idols.

The most titillating part of the documents is the so-called Chinon Parchment, which contains phrases in which Pope Clement V absolves the Templars of charges of heresy, which had been the backbone of King Philip's attempts to eliminate them.

Templars were burned at the stake for heresy by King Philip's agents after they made confessions that most historians believe were given under duress.

The parchment, also known as the Chinon Chart, was "misplaced" in the Vatican archives until 2001, when Frale stumbled across it.

"The parchment was catalogued incorrectly at some point in history. At first I couldn't believe my eyes. I was incredulous," she said.

"This was the document that a lot of historians were looking for," the 37-year-old scholar said.

Philip was heavily indebted to the Templars, who had helped him finance his wars, and getting rid of them was a convenient way of cancelling his debts, some historians say.

Frale said Pope Clement was convinced that while the Templars had committed some grave sins, they were not heretics.

SPITTING ON THE CROSS

Their initiation ceremony is believed to have included spitting on the cross, but Frale said they justified this as a ritual of obedience in preparation for possible capture by Muslims. They were also said to have practiced sodomy.

"Simply put, the pope recognized that they were not heretics but guilty of many other minor crimes -- such as abuses, violence and sinful acts within the order," she said. "But that is not the same as heresy."

Despite his conviction that the Templars were not guilty of heresy, in 1312 Pope Clement ordered the Templars disbanded for what Frale called "the good of the Church" following his repeated clashes with the French king.

Frale depicted the trials against the Templars between 1307 and 1312 as a battle of political wills between Clement and Philip, and said the document means Clement's position has to be reappraised by historians.

"This will allow anyone to see what is actually in documents like these and deflate legends that are in vogue these days," she said.

Rosi Fontana, who has helped the Vatican coordinate the project, said: "The most incredible thing is that 700 years have passed and people are still fascinated by all of this."

"The precise reproduction of the parchments will allow scholars to study them, touch them, admire them as if they were dealing with the real thing," Fontana said.

"But even better, it means the originals will not deteriorate as fast as they would if they were constantly being viewed," she said.

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071012/ts_nm/vatican_templars_dc

Joško Poljak Fan
10-13-2007, 11:05 AM
Next : Pope decides to launch the 8th Crusade. The Kingdoms of USA and England are attacking the Iranian Caliphate...

Seriously speaking now. I somewhere heard that other orders like the the Teutonic Order and the Knights Hospitallers of Malta still exist.
as far as I know there were some attempts to rewoke some sort of copy of Teutonic order during the WW2, Goring was sick about anything mythical&germanic... and sick overall... never came across on some other modern forms of it.

I don't know for Hospitallers...


as far as the templars case, it was always considered as a political intervention and I hate to see people believeing the likes of Dan Brown on how church supposedly wanted to destroy one of their strongholds with the templar order, that sure makes sense. Diplomatic battle between papacy and french king Phillip "the beautifull" went on for several years before pope agreed on letting templars down, french crown was at it's strongest ever and papacy at one of it's weakest version in medieval history.

LuDux
10-13-2007, 12:39 PM
Good news - they are not heretics
Bad news - they are still murderers

ArkadiosV2
10-13-2007, 11:34 PM
I hate people believing the likes of the bible.

rusher
10-14-2007, 09:58 AM
I believe Lithuanian hate Teutonic Knights more than Templars ?

Teutonic Knights were brutal murderers of innocent Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Prussian and other people of this region, looking on their actions here one can hardly see anything relatated to Christianism in them.

Billy
10-14-2007, 10:56 AM
Good news - they are not heretics
Bad news - they are still murderers

I´d say they are
1. Dead and
2. still dead.

Time to move on, we will never get the full picture of what happened and it does not matter. Too much time has passed. And they are, afterall, still dead.

Nikoo
10-14-2007, 11:06 AM
Seriously speaking now. I somewhere heard that other orders like the the Teutonic Order and the Knights Hospitallers of Malta still exist.
Yes they exist, but the "knights" ain't carrying swords and shield with them:D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Willoughby_Ninian_Bertie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Platter

Joško Poljak Fan
10-14-2007, 11:39 AM
Good news - they are not heretics
Bad news - they are still murderers
you really needed to try hard to become a heretic under the churches jurisdiction (opposite when local rulers took charge of the herecy and inquisition)

while in the medieval times whoever was trying with politics was also a murderer, just the way things were done back than...


I hate people believing the likes of the bible. :eek:
well this has in common with this thread just as much as me hating communist to the upmost level.

it's interesting though that people feel absolutely comfortable claiming they hate christians and their religion, eventhough they don't really, while from my observations through europe as well as Slovenia they don't dare saying they hate immigrants, since that's not the right thing to say, eventhough they actually do hate them along with imposement of their culture :)
double-faced tolerance? ...and majority of the same people in europe is lol-ing at USA society, while the lesson the euro's got from WW2 should be much more educational from anything population in US has witnessed. obviously not


Teutonic Knights were brutal murderers of innocent Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Prussian and other people of this region, looking on their actions here one can hardly see anything relatated to Christianism in them.
they were the precedors of "lebensraum" ideology... but those ideologies get their lesson sooner or later. go Žalgiris!! :p


Time to move on, we will never get the full picture of what happened and it does not matter. Too much time has passed. And they are, afterall, still dead.can't help disagreeing, knowing of what happened in the past is never a bad thing, since everything goes in cycles and afterall from knowing the history you can conclude much easier about what will happen in the future...

Billy
10-14-2007, 02:54 PM
can't help disagreeing, knowing of what happened in the past is never a bad thing, since everything goes in cycles and afterall from knowing the history you can conclude much easier about what will happen in the future...

Well, we never know the entire story when looking at history. We can, at times, get a pretty good picture at what happened but never ever the full story as that depends on your outlook/perspective.

Also, history, in my opinion, does not really tell you a whole lot about what will happen but rather what could, potentially, happen if the parameters where similar to that at that specific time;)

And I believe we have come a long way from where we were almost a century ago as is the case here.

Hell, I believe we have come along way from where we were even yesterday :D

ArkadiosV2
10-14-2007, 03:15 PM
yo
well this has in common with this thread just as much as me hating communist to the upmost level.

it's interesting though that people feel absolutely comfortable claiming they hate christians and their religion, eventhough they don't really, while from my observations through europe as well as Slovenia they don't dare saying they hate immigrants, since that's not the right thing to say, eventhough they actually do hate them along with imposement of their culture :)
double-faced tolerance? ...and majority of the same people in europe is lol-ing at USA society, while the lesson the euro's got from WW2 should be much more educational from anything population in US has witnessed. obviously not


This might be irrelevant but it was the reply of your own declaration of hate against those who believe Da Vinci Code, both Da Vinci Code and the Bible are pure fiction bullshit.

Do you know me so well that you attack me personally and say that i hate Christians and immigrants?

I don't hate Christians, i hate the FACT that SOME christians take Bible literally. And no, i absolutely do NOT hate immigrants. In fact i love them, i don't know about rest of Europeans.

Why would you say that ffs? First of all i have lived in four countries, so far, and i 'understand' what it means to be an immigrant. Then there are more reasons not to hate immigrants, like common sense for example, why would a man with common sense hate immigrants?

You might hate the FACT that local governments won't do shit to intergrade immigrants into local societies and preserve the gap between local population and the immigrants and subsidise repulsion towards immigrants in each way they can, all that just to keep the public opinion away from other important subjects. But you wouldn't hate immigrants.

In fact, why don't you create an anonymous poll here with this question and let's see how many Europeans hate immigrants.

The fact is that European economy would be perform worst than African economy without immigrants. All native populations need injections of immigrants for many and various reasons, evolution for once.

Joško Poljak Fan
10-14-2007, 04:04 PM
This might be irrelevant but it was the reply of your own declaration of hate against those who believe Da Vinci Code, both Da Vinci Code and the Bible are pure fiction bullshit.
well do you believe Da Vinci's code?
my observation (or expression of hate) was a dissapointment of the people that can get misslead as easily as Dan Brown makes them nicely wrapping it in the paper, telling all that historicaly prooved fiction about the templars (didn't thought about it being a religious topic, more of a historical one). One more proove people learned nothing from some cruel dictatorships in 20th century and are still the same sheeps as they used to be and will remain in the future.
as for the bible, fiction is a bit harsh- old testament is an unique text about those days and the way people understanded the world back than. the new testament was corrected a few times (most at Nicae concil) in order to make the religion more flexible and make it able to respond to the danger of those times, but still it's not entirely a fiction, unless of course you take it literaly.
the main difference, being a fiction or not, the bible was written in order to change things for the better, while Da vinci's code was written as a provocation... a major difference imo.


Do you know me so well that you attack me personally and say that i hate Christians and immigrants?
wasn't my intention eventhough I admit it might look that way the 2nd time i read it, while i tried to bite a bit that's true... I didn't say you hate immigrants since I was setting an example in general about "people"... it was intentionaly put this way, but anyway


I don't hate Christians, i hate the FACT that SOME christians take Bible literally.
how many of those have you actually met? i met very few of those (won't claim I didn't meet any, but I really can't remember anyone right now), while I keep meeting people believing Da Vinci code, anti-christian propaganda or just hating the church or it's followers for no specific reason really.

I am not keen to people taking bible literaly either since I in general hate naive people that get mislead easily, let it be by Dan Brown, Stalin, bible or Hitler... but afterall, if the whole world would take the bible literaly (at least the 10 commitments), would that really be that bad?


Why would you say that ffs? First of all i have lived in four countries, so far, and i 'understand' what it means to be an immigrant. Then there are more reasons not to hate immigrants, like common sense for example, why would a man with common sense hate immigrants?

You might hate the FACT that local governments won't do shit to intergrade immigrants into local societies and preserve the gap between local population and the immigrants and subsidise repulsion towards immigrants in each way they can, all that just to keep the public opinion away from other important subjects. But you wouldn't hate immigrants.

In fact, why don't you create an anonymous poll here with this question and let's see how many Europeans hate immigrants.

The fact is that European economy would be perform worst than African economy without immigrants. All native populations need injections of immigrants for many and various reasons, evolution for once.
I know that, I agree that the local goverments are responsible for not integrating the immigrant communities, big parts of europe has gone in the wrong direction regarding that
As for poll; nice try, but saying one thing is different that acting in reality. People saying I don't hate immigrants/"people of different nationalities" means nothing to me unless backed up with actions (didn't mean you, I meant lots of people I've met through europe) and the way I am seeing it in some cases when it takes actions they are the complete opposite than words and that was my point exactly: double faced hypocracy... that prolongues further since it's publicly acceptable to say I hate people believing bible, or I hate jewish lobby (nice way to say: I hate jews) saying I hate people believing Koran would make some of those same people whine about racism, inequity and could end up with legal prosecution... just pointed out some differences in perception...

ArkadiosV2
10-14-2007, 05:23 PM
well do you believe Da Vinci's code?[quote]

No. I wrote that in the same sentence you quoted.



[QUOTE=Matiz]my observation (or expression of hate) was a dissapointment of the people that can get misslead as easily as Dan Brown makes them nicely wrapping it in the paper

Same goes for me and the bible.


One more proove people learned nothing from some cruel dictatorships in 20th century and are still the same sheeps as they used to be and will remain in the future.

Isn't this what the church EXACTLY wants and seek through religion? Doesn't church call the believers 'flock' ? Go again we agree, sheep everywhere and forever.


...in order to make the religion more flexible and make it able to respond to the danger of those times...

Religion flexible? Isn't the whole point of religion the fact that it is based on dogmas? Dogmas don't change.

And why does the church change only to face the 'dangers' of times (which ones exactly?) but they do not do the same to face the 'needs' of the the times (any time) like homosexuality, euthanasia, abortion etc... ?



...the bible was written in order to change things for the better...

I do not know, and none does for that matter, the purpose of the bible but let me laugh on the result. The bible and any other 'handbook' of any religion has resulted ONLY in division, hate, fanaticism, bluster, vulgarism and major brain wash.



how many of those have you actually met?

Many that 'believe it' but do not 'practise it'.



...just hating the church or it's followers for no specific reason really.

Don't know about the people you meet, i hate church for very specific reasons, many of which relate to today's abjection of Greece (mainly) and Europe. Let me not even put Catholic Church in my mouth about the darkness they spread over South America.


if the whole world would take the bible literaly (at least the 10 commitments), would that really be that bad?

First of all it is not 'commitment' but 'commandment' which really says a lot about the ethics and the practices of the church. How many christians know that the commandments were 17 and not 10?

Let's analyse them shall we?

1. Worship no other god than the LORD...
Why would i not worship Zeus, Panathinaikos, a stone, beer or whatever if wish to do so?

2. "Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."

Why not? I shall cast whatever i want. Wasn't Aphrodite of Mylos an idol? Will you feel bad or sick or 'religiously offended' if you saw this in the Louvre musem?
Doesn't the Catholic church itself use Sistine Chapel as tourist product?

3. "Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."
Do not swear falsely by the name of god but kill millions in the name of god...

4. "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"
The christian church itself deformed this commandement by making Sunday their holy day.

5. "Honor your father and your mother..."
Totally agree.

6. "Do not murder"
Totally agree again. Wish the church itself did the same though.

7. "Do not commit adultery."
Monogamy is very rare in mammals, so it is against the nature of the human. Plus, what is the church doing in people's bedrooms?

8. "Do not steal."
Totally agree. Would want to know where did the christian church get all their money, gold, property from though...

9. "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"
Do you have to be a christian to follow this? Isn't this pure common sense?
10. "Do not covet your neighbor's wife"
This is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. Desire is a basic human attribute and instict. And fantasies make life a lot interesting, unlike religion.



...my point exactly: double faced hypocracy...

If you want to see the epitome of hypocrisy look no further than church. Church is living inside money and gold, priests are raping underage boys, cardinals backstab each other thirsty for power and christians braking the '10 commandtments' every single day of their life.

Joško Poljak Fan
10-14-2007, 09:00 PM
I won't convience you on that matter on the internet no matter if I disagree, i'm well aware of it, so i'll just back off here...;)