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Vasileios Spanoulis
03-26-2008, 05:23 PM
This is why the US keeps getting their rears kicked and why the American fans are so overly arrogant and so overrate the level of the NBA. They constantly hear crap like this from the media and supposedly "good" basketball coaches.

The players keep being told this stuff by their coaches no one can blame them for showing up with half effort then standing around in shock when Argentina or Greece beats them. Their own coaches feed them this BS. Also notice what he says about Yao Ming? Like it's some kind of brain washing or something that foreign players care about Olympics but poor US you know "of course we are better but we only try when we get paid for it." Unreal. This guy talks like the other countries like Spain, Argentina, Greece, Lithuania, Russia the better basketball countries are jokes compared to the US. Every excuse we hear. What exactly makes the US so arrogant about their basketball "superiority"? I can see it now, anything less than a gold in China and they will be on suicide watch.

Also he says "send the NBA champion" to compete in the Olympics :rolleyes: What a complete idiot. So send the Spurs minus Oberto, Duncan, Parker, Manu, yeah just send the Spurs minus everyone born outside the US. This guy is considered "one of the elite coaches in America" LMFAO

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/sports/basketball/26rhoden.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

U.S. Team Needs International Mind-Set

By WILLIAM C. RHODEN
Published: March 26, 2008

What becomes apparent during the N.C.A.A. tournament is that there is an abundance of outstanding basketball talent in the United States, from California to North Carolina, Michigan to Texas.

Each bench has an abundance of coaching acumen as well. So why hasn’t this embarrassment of riches translated into international success? Why are we wondering if a team of N.B.A. millionaires can do better than third place in a tournament in which most of the competition is playing for love of country and a modest stipend?

For all of this talent, the United States men’s team has struggled on the global basketball front. It finished sixth in the world championships in 2002, third at the 2004 Athens Olympics and third again at the worlds in 2006.

Expectations are high that the drought will end in Beijing this summer, when the United States will send yet another team of N.B.A. All-Stars to reclaim Olympic glory.

The team will be coached by Mike Krzyzewski, whose Duke Blue Devils were pushed to the brink by Belmont in the first round of the N.C.A.A. tournament before being booted by West Virginia in the second.

Not to worry.

“I think they’re taking all the strides to take back what we’re supposed to be doing — winning,” Coach John Calipari said Monday during a phone interview. His Memphis team will play Michigan State on Friday in a regional semifinal. “It’s not a hodgepodge of All-Stars, the way it was back in the 1980s, when we could show up and win because we were so much better.”

But if the men’s basketball team wins the gold medal, it won’t be because it mastered the international system or because Krzyzewski is a genius. It will be because the world simply has no answer for Kobe Bryant and LeBron James.

The United States team, as it did in Barcelona in 1992 — when USA Basketball first felt compelled to use professional players — is still counting on a shock-and-awe approach to winning gold medals.

But shock and awe are not the answer. Pick-and-rolls are; so is having centers who can step out and shoot the 3 on offense and guard the perimeter on defense. Win or lose in Beijing, the United States, once and for all, must adapt to the international game.

“The international teams will play zone because they don’t think the U.S. can shoot,” Calipari said. “That’s the way teams play us. They’re playing a style that is a sharp contrast to ours and more suited to international ball. It’s a wide-open style of basketball.”

In the United States, it’s time to do the unthinkable: widen the lanes. Widen high school and college lanes to 16 feet, and widen the N.B.A. lane to international dimensions (yes, adopt the trapezoid).

Let’s concede, for a change, that the rest of the world has it right. Clearly, the United States needs to adjust, although the attitude among its coaches is that, far from needing wider lanes, the team simply needs to have the right mix of skilled players chosen every four years from our abundant pool of talent.

“We can play like they play, but better,” Calipari said. “At the end of the day, it comes down to players making plays, and our players are better.”

We’ll see about that soon enough.

College players should be put back into the Olympic mix. They were the staple of Olympic competition until 1992, and they bring passion and enthusiasm to the competition. Problem is, college players are no longer strong enough to compete at the Olympic level.

On the other hand, an all-star team of highly paid professionals may or may not be sufficiently motivated to endure the rigors of a nine-month season, then give it the old college try in Olympic competition.

In discussing the differences between international teams and the Americans, Calipari pointed to how Yao Ming went to great lengths to have an operation so he would be ready for the Games. “He had surgery for one reason — so he can play and represent China in the Olympics,” Calipari said. “It’s like guerrilla warfare, where the other guy is willing to die for his cause and you’re not. Now all of a sudden there’s a different mentality, and you’re not winning.”

Calipari was not suggesting that the United States’ players are not patriotic. Patriotism is deeply personal. However, among high-profile players, the notion of competing for one’s country is less pronounced inside the United States, where the focus is on playing for a professional team or a university.

The answer — for national pride and continuity — is to have some sort of permanent national team. Calipari has an even better idea: send the N.B.A. champion.

His idea would involve identifying a core group of eight or nine players from the championship team, then adding two to three players from the outside.

Widen the lane, concentrate on perimeter play, send the N.B.A. champions. Regardless of what happens in China this summer, the United States must change its global ways.

E-mail: wcr@nytimes.com

cheezdoodle
03-26-2008, 05:54 PM
What exactly did he say that was wrong here? He was extremely complimentary of what international teams and players are doing right. I find it very hard to find anything disagreeable here. I don't think your reading comprehension is very good, especially looking through your bolded points...

Tim Duncan plays for the US national team. Remember Athens 04? The point he was making was about the importance of chemistry in an event like the Olympics, not about any specific teams or players. I think you were trying to read a little too much into this article, trying to find things to get insulted by that just aren't there.

Vasileios Spanoulis
03-26-2008, 05:59 PM
What exactly did he say that was wrong here? He was extremely complimentary of what international teams and players are doing right. I find it very hard to find anything disagreeable here. I don't think your reading comprehension is very good, especially looking through your bolded points...

Tim Duncan plays for the US national team. Remember Athens 04? The point he was making was about the importance of chemistry in an event like the Olympics, not about any specific teams or players. I think you were trying to read a little too much into this article, trying to find things to get insulted by that just aren't there.

You are American I would not expect you to get it. It is perfectly normal what he said to you because in America it's just "common knowledge" America is the best in the world at everything. Why should basketball be any different right?

What he is saying is not that the other countries ever beat the US or even can but only that the US loses because it does not care enough to win and somehow tries to deride what Yao does for China.

He then states clearly that "we have the best players". If you have the best players why have you not won anything since 2000? Oh it's because "we only care if we are getting paid."

Like I said this is the exact kind of attitude why they are losing these tournaments to much smaller countries. And Duncan is from the Virgin Islands a US foreign territory. Meaning he is a Virgin Islands player that could play for the US if he was asked.

He was asked to play for the US even though he's a foreign player (because he is eligible under the rules) because the US finished in 6th place at the 2002 World Championship. After the 2004 Olympics he swore he would never play in the Olympics again because as he said in FIBA the refs call the game based on the rules and in the NBA it is based on how big of a star you are. As he said without star treatment from the refs he is not Tim Duncan but just another player. He even said "FIBA really sucks because of the refs."

Yea glorious run he had.

Joško Poljak Fan
03-26-2008, 06:33 PM
I know I said I'll never ever again reply to one of your posts... but can't stay silent once more. I can easily say that this particular "arogant american" you were quoting (btw. aren't you american as well?) saw about few times more international games than we both saw combined. So my most honest suggestion would be for you to shut up finaly...

Vasileios Spanoulis
03-26-2008, 07:37 PM
I know I said I'll never ever again reply to one of your posts... but can't stay silent once more. I can easily say that this particular "arogant american" you were quoting (btw. aren't you american as well?) saw about few times more international games than we both saw combined. So my most honest suggestion would be for you to shut up finaly...

This guy hasn't seen much international basketball at all. He spends all his time scouting high school players or coaching NCAA games. Yes I am what is called a "Greek American". Which means I am American citizen and also Greek citizen if this makes any sense.

Nikoo
03-26-2008, 07:44 PM
He was asked to play for the US even though he's a foreign player (because he is eligible under the rules) because the US finished in 6th place at the 2002 World Championship.
I remember that Duncan played for USA in 1995 in the World uni. games:rolleyes:

rikhardur
03-26-2008, 07:48 PM
I'll just say that Calipari is in denial :rolleyes:

Vasileios Spanoulis
03-26-2008, 07:55 PM
I remember that Duncan played for USA in 1995 in the World uni. games:rolleyes:

He is from Virgin Islands which is a DIFFERENT COUNTRY and this is where he was born. BUT it is a "US territory" which means he can technically play for them.

This would be like if Carlos Arroyo said "I am not a member of Puerto Rico's team but the US team". But I guess you cannot blame Duncan because the Virgin Islands team would suck. Him and Raja Bell and who else?

stickkeys108
03-27-2008, 12:24 AM
You are American I would not expect you to get it. It is perfectly normal what he said to you because in America it's just "common knowledge" America is the best in the world at everything. Why should basketball be any different right?

What he is saying is not that the other countries ever beat the US or even can but only that the US loses because it does not care enough to win and somehow tries to deride what Yao does for China.

He then states clearly that "we have the best players". If you have the best players why have you not won anything since 2000? Oh it's because "we only care if we are getting paid."

Like I said this is the exact kind of attitude why they are losing these tournaments to much smaller countries. And Duncan is from the Virgin Islands a US foreign territory. Meaning he is a Virgin Islands player that could play for the US if he was asked.

He was asked to play for the US even though he's a foreign player (because he is eligible under the rules) because the US finished in 6th place at the 2002 World Championship. After the 2004 Olympics he swore he would never play in the Olympics again because as he said in FIBA the refs call the game based on the rules and in the NBA it is based on how big of a star you are. As he said without star treatment from the refs he is not Tim Duncan but just another player. He even said "FIBA really sucks because of the refs."

Yea glorious run he had.

Right, and all of Greece's, or any other country for that matter, success outshines the US far away...........;)

But yes, John Calipari is an idiot...........and I'm an American........

wardjdim
03-27-2008, 09:51 AM
I cannot even understand the reason of this thread's existence. Basketball is one of the top-4 sports in the U.S., but the sole one that the other countries can compete with the Americans. The U.S. basketball is arguably the best when it comes to organization, I think we can all agree on that. Better organization means better scouting. It is obvious that they hire the best and these people are traveling around the world, have the best contacts and watch a lot of games, so I guess that they have an idea of what they are expected to face in the world competitions.

On the other hand, you have the "arrogance", which can be transmitted to the players from the star-system. It's understandable, though. Wouldn't you be arrogant, if you were just a back-up guy for the U.S. team and you were still making five times more money than the back-up Greek or Lithuanian player (still among the best paid players in Europe)? Add to all the above the motivation that all these teams have playing against "the best" and the beneficial for them international rules and you have the excuses that the Americans can use for their teams' losses.

mvblair
03-27-2008, 03:09 PM
I don't know. I think Calipari is right in a lot of his points. He says that other teams don't think we can shoot (true). He says we shouldn't send the hodgepodge of stars (true). He says that a lot of international players put their NTs over clubs (true). The thing he says that is controversial is that the US has better individual players, but not better plays (might be true).

Joško Poljak Fan
03-27-2008, 03:36 PM
US does have the best individual players. i don't undestand what's arguable here at all. In fact they should win golds in a row if basketball was only a matter of individual talent and luckily for us, it isn't. I don't know what else Calipari has said in the past, concluding from the responses, obviously there were some weird claims. But this article is just... fine. I agree with it more or less.

Lietuvis
03-27-2008, 04:22 PM
I didnt find anything that arrogant except for one statement:

<snip>
“We can play like they play, but better,” Calipari said. “At the end of the day, it comes down to players making plays, and our players are better.”
</snip>

But otherwise he was quite reasonable and spoke as he realises they again are favourites but need to improve their game if they want gold.

-K2-
03-27-2008, 06:03 PM
But I guess you cannot blame Duncan because the Virgin Islands team would suck. Him and Raja Bell and who else?
The Virgin Islands is one of the most talented team on the region, their federation simply sucks, they go to every tournament with less than a week together.


Technically, Duncan cant play for the VI, as Arroyo cant play for Team USA, nor Melo Anthony for Team PR, neither Charlie Villanueva for Team RD. Once you have your sports citizenship, you cantr change it

Vasileios Spanoulis
03-27-2008, 07:46 PM
You guys don't get it. It's the context of how he said it that is so arrogant. He may say well "we didn't win because our players did not put in as much effort" but look at what he said about YAO MING.

Read that carefully now re-read the bolded parts I made.

Essentially as they say read between the lines. Don't tell me you guys are not able to pick up on this.

What he said about Yao was where he made his little slip.

Lietuvis
03-28-2008, 06:00 AM
"“He had surgery for one reason — so he can play and represent China in the Olympics,” Calipari said. “It’s like guerrilla warfare, where the other guy is willing to die for his cause and you’re not. Now all of a sudden there’s a different mentality, and you’re not winning.”
"

OK, so they way I read this is that Yao is a dedicated countyman or patriot of China and he is doing everything he can to be fit and ready for the Beijing Olympics even to die for this cause where the Americans do not have such passion and all of a sudden they (USA basketball) find themselves in such losing situations.

So too me he is saying that Americans need to play with some heart if they want a chance to win this.

damelo
03-28-2008, 08:45 AM
So, let's send the champion:
Spurs American players :D :
Tim Duncan, Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley, Brent Barry, Robert Horry, Jacques Vaughn? I may miss one or two... :D :D :D

And then, what? US will win with that team? Even in pure talent most Euro teams seem better.
Well, let's send Eastern teams... But, they won't be used to see such enthusiasm against them...
For Yao... I'm not sure about that? Where was he at the Asian tournament?

mvblair
03-28-2008, 01:56 PM
So too me he is saying that Americans need to play with some heart if they want a chance to win this. That's how I read it too. And, truthfully, he's right. In '92, we had heart and we dominated the competition. All those NBA stars wanted the Gold. They really did. Things have changed and the talent levels are very similar now, but we have lost that heart, the desire, the will. I think players like Kobe have that heart again, but now that the competition is so close in team talent, there is no guarantee.


And then, what? US will win with that team? Even in pure talent most Euro teams seem better.
Well, let's send Eastern teams... But, they won't be used to see such enthusiasm against them... Let's send the Miami Heat. They don't have any foreign players anymore. :D

Vasileios Spanoulis
03-30-2008, 07:31 PM
“He had surgery for one reason"

I can't believe I'm the only poster here that knows what he meant by that statement.

mvblair
03-30-2008, 10:22 PM
“He had surgery for one reason"

I can't believe I'm the only poster here that knows what he meant by that statement.
Well, I assume he said that Yao had surgery only because he wanted to be ready for the Olympics.

Vasileios Spanoulis
03-30-2008, 10:57 PM
Well, I assume he said that Yao had surgery only because he wanted to be ready for the Olympics.

Which is not only insulting, it's also ridiculous. This combined with the other statements tells you exactly what he meant.

I was thinking the US might actually win in China, but now I again doubt it. Their arrogance in the basketball tournament, which has no foundation because they are not nearly as "superior" as they think they are, is their constant undoing.

Waneko
04-01-2008, 04:34 PM
John Calipari hasn't gotten too much more intelligent since he made the racial remark to a Mexican American media person back when he was coaching the Nets.

Where he is fundamentally wrong is where he said “At the end of the day, it comes down to players making plays."

He must be refering to the American style of play that is individual, as opposed to the team concept. The failure of the U.S. to dominate on the big stage recently is the best example how team play is more effective than all that one on one that is the NBA style of play. It does help that International refs don't give star treatment.

It's nice to point out that the 92 U.S. team had heart and all, but the rest of the world had not improved enough yet to where everyone is today. I think the playing field has been made even. The teams that will win from now on will be the ones that prepare the best.

Waneko
04-01-2008, 04:44 PM
The Virgin Islands is one of the most talented team on the region, their federation simply sucks, they go to every tournament with less than a week together.


Technically, Duncan cant play for the VI, as Arroyo cant play for Team USA, nor Melo Anthony for Team PR, neither Charlie Villanueva for Team RD. Once you have your sports citizenship, you cantr change it

My understanding is that you can't change it once you represent a nation at the senior level. I would imagine that makes Charlie still eligible to play for RD should he choose, no?

Czarkazem13
05-31-2008, 11:55 PM
I didnt find anything that arrogant except for one statement:



“We can play like they play, but better,” Calipari said. “At the end of the day, it comes down to players making plays, and our players are better.”


But otherwise he was quite reasonable and spoke as he realises they again are favourites but need to improve their game if they want gold.


I don't know. I think Calipari is right in a lot of his points. He says that other teams don't think we can shoot (true). He says we shouldn't send the hodgepodge of stars (true). He says that a lot of international players put their NTs over clubs (true). The thing he says that is controversial is that the US has better individual players, but not better plays (might be true).


What exactly did he say that was wrong here? He was extremely complimentary of what international teams and players are doing right. I find it very hard to find anything disagreeable here. I don't think your reading comprehension is very good, especially looking through your bolded points...

I have to agree, I also didn't find anything that he said so arrogant.


You are American I would not expect you to get it. It is perfectly normal what he said to you because in America it's just "common knowledge" America is the best in the world at everything. Why should basketball be any different right?

Gee, that kinda sounds arrogant.


He is from Virgin Islands which is a DIFFERENT COUNTRY and this is where he was born. BUT it is a "US territory" which means he can technically play for them.

This would be like if Carlos Arroyo said "I am not a member of Puerto Rico's team but the US team". But I guess you cannot blame Duncan because the Virgin Islands team would suck. Him and Raja Bell and who else?

Duncan has repeatedly played for the U.S. national team. The U.S. Virgin Islands didn't have a senior team at the time (which they do now). He represents the U.S., however I don't think he has ever played when the U.S. has played the U.S. Virgin Islands (not like they need him).

Carmelo Anthony had a choice, he could have rep'd the Puerto Rican national team, but chose to play for the U.S.



You guys don't get it. It's the context of how he said it that is so arrogant. He may say well "we didn't win because our players did not put in as much effort" but look at what he said about YAO MING.

Read that carefully now re-read the bolded parts I made.

Essentially as they say read between the lines. Don't tell me you guys are not able to pick up on this.

What he said about Yao was where he made his little slip.

Or you are reading too munch into it.



Well, I assume he said that Yao had surgery only because he wanted to be ready for the Olympics.

That's what I get out of it too? So how exactly is that bashing Yao?

mvblair
06-01-2008, 03:04 AM
Duncan has repeatedly played for the U.S. national team. The U.S. Virgin Islands didn't have a senior team at the time (which they do now). He represents the U.S., however I don't think he has ever played when the U.S. has played the U.S. Virgin Islands (not like they need him). Right.
That's what I get out of it too? So how exactly is that bashing Yao? I don't know. I think it's a compliment really. Calipari is saying that he thinks US players need more of that "heart" that other NTs have, like Yao, who insisted on having a surgery early so he could play in Beijing, rather than finish the NBA season.

damelo
06-01-2008, 05:38 PM
Well, US and dependencies player's status is difficult.

Because, PR is part of the US, so are the Virgin Islands (US part). Duncan was member of the US squad when it was about swimming, so, he did the same when it was about basketball.
For PR, I remembered readin gsomething like the most point allowed by the US team to one player was to a puerto rican guy that had hopes to make the USNT, and did not at the last moment. He was a legit member of both teams, as he automaticaly has both passports...
France may have the same with DOM-TOMs, and already has the problem with New Caledonia in football. Well, only player in NT recent history with problem is Karembeu, who declared once he played for France in order to have people talking about his nation (New Caledonia), and he never sung la Marseillaise.