Final: USA vs Spain

[Srle]

Maybe if Kobe was hurt they could have won:)

[panteluke]

The fact that he said it?

Well, my words were exact. I wrote: "Reyes told the press that without the refs they would have won"

[Zasalamel]

Well, my words were exact. I wrote: "Reyes told the press that without the refs they would have won"
Reyes just :mad: they lost. If there were no refs I'm pretty sure there would be a melee rather than a game with some of those antics Spain used. :)

[corbalan]

does anybody seen, like spain played too bad last two minutes at the match.
For exemple Zone defense gave great oportunities to spain to stay near the american all the game, but with six points down, allowed USA to make 2 long attacks when there was 2 minutes to go., and just Pau Gasol, saw with 55 seconds to go, that Spain needed an all-fileld defense, he made a fault and then Aito (Spanish Trainner). ask all the team to press.
Another example.
I think Two technical was an error too, we were seven points down, but there was more than 30 seconds to go. It was difficult but who knows, all you know what you can do at this wonderfull play.
Anyway, I think it was a very good match not only for basketball "conossieurs", this macht is good for all people, Fiba basketball lot of times is good only for people who likes basketball.

[Dtown]

does anybody seen, like spain played too bad last two minutes at the match.
For exemple Zone defense gave great oportunities to spain to stay near the american all the game, but with six points down, allowed USA to make 2 long attacks when there was 2 minutes to go., and just Pau Gasol, saw with 55 seconds to go, that Spain needed an all-fileld defense, he made a fault and then Aito (Spanish Trainner). ask all the team to press.
Another example.
I think Two technical was an error too, we were seven points down, but there was more than 30 seconds to go. It was difficult but who knows, all you know what you can do at this wonderfull play.
Anyway, I think it was a very good match not only for basketball "conossieurs", this macht is good for all people, Fiba basketball lot of times is good only for people who likes basketball.

It's amazing we've gone 26 pages and you're probably the first person to talk about the Spanish melt down in the last two minutes. Absolutely terrible decision making. I don't want to say it alone cost them the game, but it cost them any chance of doing anything in the final seconds.

[Zasalamel]

Yeah they did fold there in the last couple of minutes, Jimminez ( not sure if I spelled it right) was wide open for three and had been knocking down shots but missed. I think once he missed that any hope of comeback was erased.

Best part of the game was when Howard got dunked on. :eek: You know Kobe and company is prob clowning him right now. USA kept their composure well after that happened, that def should have swung momentum in Spain's favor.

[Captain CAAAVEMAAAAANNN!!]

I think Two technical was an error too, we were seven points down, but there was more than 30 seconds to go. It was difficult but who knows, all you know what you can do at this wonderfull play.
err... they didn't do it on purpose, man, they were just pissed off at the refs. The thing is that if you let usa guards escape from the spanish full-court pressure defence by practising the art of TRAVELLING,
one of the team main weapons -Aito's trademark full-court press- becomes useless.

[Unimane]

Yeah they did fold there in the last couple of minutes, Jimminez ( not sure if I spelled it right) was wide open for three and had been knocking down shots but missed. I think once he missed that any hope of comeback was erased.

Best part of the game was when Howard got dunked on. :eek: You know Kobe and company is prob clowning him right now. USA kept their composure well after that happened, that def should have swung momentum in Spain's favor.

Kobe better not clowning on him, it was his fault. Kobe played terrible defense and put Howard is a bad position. In fact, Howard didn't get dunked on, he was just trailing. And, if you watch the play, Fernandez pushes Howard's arm away with his left hand.

[Unimane]

No. Basketball is not a circus game, at least in FIBA. Well it wasn't until ... it took this direction. Damn.

Referees always used to close an eye or two when the player caught the inbound pass off the made basket right at the own baseline and took one step before dribbling, with everybody back already. This was tolerated, and in fact, there is no advantage or disadvantage for anyone, and the travelling wasn't ridiculous. However, this is a much different case. He gets the pass already at a long distance away from the own basket, runs, and the ball hits the floor for the first time when he's one meter from midcourt. Players from the other team are still in the opponent's half and struggling to get back, while James is allowed to run at full speed without being slowed down by dribbling the basketball. Say what you want, this has played a large part in the US' fast paced game which has led to so many easy baskets in this tournament.

As for the Kobe Bryant part, situations like these are often not correctly eveluated. I've seen players seemingly coming out of nowhere to block fastbreak layups and dunk attempts a lot of times, players like Diamantidis and Prince famously do it on a regular basis. This is made possible because the attacker has to get his steps and the dribble right (often he does mistakes doing so), while the defender can arrive at full speed and power. This is not possible, if the attacker can easily catch the ball, take two steps, dribble it, and throw it down. And regardless of all of that, it is a ridiculous travelling that should be called under any circumstances. Why does he take that one dribble anyway? He should take all seven steps at once to make it more obvious. And according to you, it still wouldn't be travelling.

Ps: Please ... could somebody explain me and those others who asked what the Euro-step is? Thanks in advance.

Spare me that Euro game is better crap. I much prefer the American game to the circus of illegal picks, overly technical and flopping circus that is the Euro game.

[Dtown]

Can you feel the love tonight?

Anyway putting the press on the Americans in the open court was a stupid strategy to begin with. Too many passers, too many people who can handle the ball well. Of course as the score indicates neither team was capable of stopping the other, the only thing that came close was the spanish zone.

[Jon_Koncak]

robbe nice analysis..what about illegal picks?

damn i'm still waitin for an explanation..why the hell do fiba refs allow illegal picks?

[Dtown]

robbe nice analysis..what about illegal picks?

damn i'm still waitin for an explanation..why the hell do fiba refs allow illegal picks?

Because it's European and sensible despite being in the rule book.:p

[karim]

feels like the americans got many calls for them last 2 games ..against argentine they have won anyway but this game was close , they could,ve won had the referees not called so many calls in their favor and calderon playing would have helped ..what a shame great game spaniards

[Captain CAAAVEMAAAAANNN!!]

robbe nice analysis..what about illegal picks?

damn i'm still waitin for an explanation..why the hell do fiba refs allow illegal picks?
WTF are you talking about? Did you see any illegal screen on this game??

[Dtown]

WTF are you talking about? Did you see any illegal screen on this game??

Actually yes, both Gasols were moving on plenty of screens to no calls. Had no impact on the game really, but if we're pointing out every travel why not the illegal screens as well?

[Unimane]

WTF are you talking about? Did you see any illegal screen on this game??

Uhhh, YES....Marc Gasol....cough, cough.

[Zasalamel]

Spare me that Euro game is better crap. I much prefer the American game to the circus of illegal picks, overly technical and flopping circus that is the Euro game.
You just gotta do this if you don't want to hear it.
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8831/goldmedalgame08240804ea5.jpg

[Captain CAAAVEMAAAAANNN!!]

Actually yes, both Gasols were moving on plenty of screens to no calls. Had no impact on the game really, but if we're pointing out every travel why not the illegal screens as well? oh, c'mon, that's not true and you know it, I follow the NBA and the way they call the moving picks it's the same as here. No, there was not different treatmeat on usa players. And anyway, in case you forgot, Gasol actually plays in the NBA.

[Connedy]

My English is pretty bad...but i´ll try it :p
Why a lot of people is talking about the refs..if we saw this great match??Why at all sports people need to talk about the refs? :confused: Sometimes is funny, because you´re talking with your friends and that things... but sometimes is very sad, because people use it to insult eachothers... We can be rival, but not enemies
The match was absolutely amazing!! We saw one of the best international matches! Wade was incredible, Rudy was almost perfect... and I don´t know if you felt the same..but I enjoyed a lot, because this is true basketball.
Sincerely, congratulations to USA for your gold medal! And congratulations for the spanish players, who played really great

[Dtown]

oh, c'mon, that's not true and you know it, I follow the NBA and the way they call the moving picks it's the same as here. No, there was not different threatmeat on usa players, and anyway, in case you forgot, Gasol actually plays in the NBA.

I was actually mostly referring to Marc Gasol who hasn't played a game in the NBA yet, but that's not the point. If you think there's no difference in how they call moving screens in this tournament and in the NBA there's absolutely no sense in arguing with you cause there's no chance we'll agree on anything.

Also awesome pic Zasalamel

[porompompero]

Love is in the aaaair verywhere I look around
NNC0kIzM1Fo&fmt

http://i36.tinypic.com/mkynva.gif


BTW congrats

[Terps54321]

http://i36.tinypic.com/mkynva.gif


BTW congrats

That dunk was filthy.

[Dtown]

Dwight's going to be on posters in Spain, poor guy Kobe missed his assignment on that one.

[Terps54321]

Yeah at least he tried for the block. A lot of guys would've let Rudy go unchallenged instead of being embarrassed like that.

[cheezdoodle]

That dunk was filthy.

clear-cut offensive foul.

[Unimane]

Fernandez pushed off with his left arm. Still, nice play by him. Kobe really screwed Howard on that play. I am sure that Rudy will get some nice payback when he plays the Magic this year.

[Captain CAAAVEMAAAAANNN!!]

If you think there's no difference in how they call moving screens in this tournament and in the NBA there's absolutely no sense in arguing with you cause there's no chance we'll agree on anything. I don't know about this tournament, because to begin with, we have had different refs here, that are from different countries and officiate in different leagues. But I know how they call it in the NBA, I know how they call it in the Spanish league, and I know how they called it in this game. And there was no difference at all.
Don't try to fool us with that. We actually have TV sets here in old Europe. We can watch the NBA the same as you.

[Ilya]

clear-cut offensive foul.

Give me a break guys. I can understand the mentality of one who has lost (not that I justify it) to accuse the refs, but that one an offensive foul? Get real, please.

[Jon_Koncak]

nice offensive foul by Rudy..

[porompompero]

Yeah at least he tried for the block. A lot of guys would've let Rudy go unchallenged instead of being embarrassed like that.
I was going to write the exact first sentence. I think that summarize the change of mentality that many of the players (not all but the necessary ones to be succesful) have done during the pre-olympic and olympic tournament. It's been certainly a change since the last years. I don't know if coach will leave, and what players won't be in the next WC but I wonder if they'll manage to create the same atmosphere, and all that paraphernalia of redeem team, since they won't have to redeem again, they'll have to consolidate their spirit. Difficult i think

[Dtown]

Now we're just getting silly, leave Rudy alone, leave him alone! :p

[Ilya]

Otherwise he might just take off his clothes?:D :p :p :p :p :p

[Dtown]

I was going to write the exact first sentence. I think that summarize the change of mentality that many of the players (not all but the necessary ones to be succesful) have done during the pre-olympic and olympic tournament. It's been certainly a change since the last years. I don't know if coach will leave, and what players won't be in the next WC but I wonder if they'll manage to create the same atmosphere, and all that paraphernalia of redeem team, since they won't have to redeem again, they'll have to consolidate their spirit. Difficult i think

Coach K is definitely leaving, though the assistant coach D'Antoni is the favorite to take the job.

As for players. Kobe, Paul, Dwight, and Bosh are on record saying they definitely want to play again and more players have said they want on Team USA. http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/54130/20080823/team_usa_now_a_hot_commodity/ this just might be post olympic hype though.

[Dtown]

Otherwise he might just take off his clothes?:D :p :p :p :p :p

Gah thanks for the image Ilya! I'm trying to eat here :(

[corbalan]

It's amazing we've gone 26 pages and you're probably the first person to talk about the Spanish melt down in the last two minutes. Absolutely terrible decision making. I don't want to say it alone cost them the game, but it cost them any chance of doing anything in the final seconds.

That´s why I think we miss a great oportunity, there was lot of great decisions all over the macht, we decided to play without playmaker long times (although we have 2). Great decision, I think that we make it hard in defense too, that´s why we taked lot of rebounds.
But I was very desesperated whith 1:30 to go, and the american playmaket going around without defense like he was playing at her playground.

Another point, I saw Pau Gasol very tired, but it seems to me that, USA was a little tired to, I think that he defended wiht more intensity at previews matches, They didn´t run so much against Argentina or today at the final. (I think nba players can´t play 100% all championship.

Anyway, I insist. It was a very good final. Congratulations.

[kestas]

although amazingly enough Spain could beat US today (USA hit five more threes than Spain did, which I think could have been the key while their usual reliance on steals was not so appearanent, imho), USA had a very good tournament. they topped the team stats in rebounds and field goal percentage (not to mention steals, of course). on the other hand, this team has proved their poor shooting (no complaints about dunk percentage though ;)) two years ago was not a fluke, USA finished 6th in threepointers percentage and 11th in freethrows (only Iran were worse here). another encouraging thing for other teams is that USA showed nothing extraordinary when it came to a positional offense. more often than not the guy with the ball at the beginining of the attack would try to finish himself or dish an assist for a shot, while others stand still. some years ago you'd say this static offense is due to the zone deffense, but you can't say that today, surely (?).. anyways, blame me whatever you like, but I simply can not stand this type of basketball and that's why I can't force myself to like the NBA. anyways, individual deffense, speed and stamina is what others should be working on to overcome the Americans (protecting the ball goes without saying), imho, coz in terms of shooting they're only average and tactically there's not much to shout about either, imho...

[PHILIPeurobasket]

http://teampilipinas.info/2008/08/usa-vs-spain-replay.html here you can watch game again ;)

[cheezdoodle]

Give me a break guys. I can understand the mentality of one who has lost (not that I justify it) to accuse the refs, but that one an offensive foul? Get real, please.

Obviously you aren't looking too hard. Rudy's left arm is clearly pushing Howard's body backwards as he goes up in the air. Great play by Mr. Fernandez, but if we want the refs to call every single little thing like our Lithuanian and Spanish cry-baby friends are suggesting, than that was clearly an offensive foul.

[cheezdoodle]

I think that Americans who are just now starting to get into FIBA basketball are starting to get a better feel now for the European mentality when it comes to sports (not just basketball). If your team loses (or someone achieves a result that you didn't want to see happening), then its obviously and always because someone cheated. The concept of sportsmanship doesn't really exist in Europe, and as much as I love European basketball (and definitely know more about it than 99% of the Europeans on this forum), that's one of the biggest turnoffs for me. Look at the amount of violence we see from fans in European sports, this is a clear-cut product of that mentality.

[corbalan]

err... they didn't do it on purpose, man, they were just pissed off at the refs. The thing is that if you let usa guards escape from the spanish full-court pressure defence by practising the art of TRAVELLING,
one of the team main weapons -Aito's trademark full-court press- becomes useless.

Sorry, I believe that technical fouls may have an intention, If haven´t any intention, you have made a mistake... But that is my opinion, and I´m sure that Aito thinks in the same way.
The travelling of USA players are known by everyone since NBA players came to FIBA competitions, and Aito trys to influenced in that point 2 days ago, I think that was a very wise strategy. But you can´t provoce technical foul with 40 seconds to go and leave the macht.
Any way you saw travelling at American player, I've seen too, but I also saw a very bad defense by Navarro, who is known at spain for his great ofense, and for his bad defense...
That´s why i think that last two minutes of spain were played like we didn´t expec to be there at that time. But it´s just my opinion.

[bobo81]

I still cant believe the US beat Spain 2wice, and Argentina in their blue uniforms. Call it whatever you want but this is an achievement itself :D For those who dont know, usually we play poor with our away jerseys. This also applies for our soccer team too. I dont know why...

[bobo81]

I think that Americans who are just now starting to get into FIBA basketball are starting to get a better feel now for the European mentality when it comes to sports (not just basketball). If your team loses (or someone achieves a result that you didn't want to see happening), then its obviously and always because someone cheated. The concept of sportsmanship doesn't really exist in Europe, and as much as I love European basketball (and definitely know more about it than 99% of the Europeans on this forum), that's one of the biggest turnoffs for me. Look at the amount of violence we see from fans in European sports, this is a clear-cut product of that mentality.

Dude you are not new here...were you here during the WC2006? It was disgusting. Obviously the US team is hated here and this is nothing new. Just leave it alone and sulk in the victory. :)

[Zasalamel]

I think that Americans who are just now starting to get into FIBA basketball are starting to get a better feel now for the European mentality when it comes to sports (not just basketball). If your team loses (or someone achieves a result that you didn't want to see happening), then its obviously and always because someone cheated. The concept of sportsmanship doesn't really exist in Europe, and as much as I love European basketball (and definitely know more about it than 99% of the Europeans on this forum), that's one of the biggest turnoffs for me. Look at the amount of violence we see from fans in European sports, this is a clear-cut product of that mentality.
I disagree, not everyone has been like that on this forum, just a few maybe and that same mentality is used by some US fans as well. Just wait until the NFL season starts. :(

[Ilya]

I love all of you guys.... I won't even ask that you take off your clothes....:D :D :D

(Shall we all please stop generalising and accusing one another and instead feel blessed we watched an exciting, amazing game today?)

[Dtown]

I love all of you guys.... I won't even ask that you take off your clothes....:D :D :D

*Had already tossed her his shirt*

...oh um...this is awkward.

[Ilya]

Love is in the air....

[cheezdoodle]

I disagree, not everyone has been like that on this forum, just a few maybe and that same mentality is used by some US fans as well. Just wait until the NFL season starts. :(

I know its not everyone, but I spend a lot of time in Europe around basketball people and even more in the States and I definitely feel it a lot more in Europe. Football (American or Soccer too) fans are the lowest common denominator as far as I'm concerned, so that doesn't surprise me at all. Basketball fans are supposed to be a little more sophisticated but that doesn't always show up in reality unfortunately.

[Ilya]

Coooome on, don't say that...We are sophisticated. Just a bit young.:) :) :)

[Zasalamel]

I know its not everyone, but I spend a lot of time in Europe around basketball people and even more in the States and I definitely feel it a lot more in Europe. Football (American or Soccer too) fans are the lowest common denominator as far as I'm concerned, so that doesn't surprise me at all. Basketball fans are supposed to be a little more sophisticated but that doesn't always show up in reality unfortunately.
Oh thats really cool that you travel over there. I know what you mean though, I've seen clips where people clear the stadiums onto the fields in a Soccer match. Its gets crazy.:eek:

[Ilya]

I really, really, really tried, guys. Do you know what is almost certain to happen if this goes on? I think you do. So, let's be adults now, shall we?

[Zasalamel]

I really, really, really tried, guys. Do you know what is almost certain to happen if this goes on? I think you do. So, let's be adults now, shall we?
*cheers* :)

[Khalid80]

Congrats for both Spain and the US!
A final worth watching and very entertaining!
It would have been interesting to see how Spain would have fared if Calderon wasn't injured.

[Ilya]

I just wanted to say it once more: I REALLY LOVE THIS GAME:)

[Mgoblue201]

I think that Americans who are just now starting to get into FIBA basketball are starting to get a better feel now for the European mentality when it comes to sports (not just basketball). If your team loses (or someone achieves a result that you didn't want to see happening), then its obviously and always because someone cheated. The concept of sportsmanship doesn't really exist in Europe, and as much as I love European basketball (and definitely know more about it than 99% of the Europeans on this forum), that's one of the biggest turnoffs for me. Look at the amount of violence we see from fans in European sports, this is a clear-cut product of that mentality.
I think that people are mostly the same in this regard, and Americans can be just as bad. The whining during the NBA Finals has become a yearly event. People complain about the Super Bowl (Seahawks and Steelers a few years ago) and the MLB playoffs (San Diego and Colorado). They have used it to invalidate some champions (Ohio State Buckeyes) and lessen others (Miami Heat). It's become really exhausting because now every call during every big sporting event is questioned, and as long as a game is close, people will have a laundry list of things since human fallacy is intolerable (it's a good outlet for frustration). I try not to complain anymore unless I can bridge a direct causal relationship between a bad call and a loss in that a team lost because of a bad call.

In this case, I don't have a problem with leeway on rules because rules are meant to be bent based on circumstances. There is no perfect foresight in making a rule, and so it should not be completely rigid in that it limits creativity and play. A lot of times a rule is given a new context based on reffing style. I ask that the spirit of the rule be upheld and that there is consistency. I don't know if Spain was given the same leeway since I don't really know the FIBA rule. I hope that they were.

People also have a tendency to protect what is theirs and defend it infallibly. International basketball fans don't want to see an NBA style because they think their way is superior, and NBA fans respond that NBA basketball is the way to go because it's better. I think that there are things to love and hate about both, and it depends on personal preference. It's tough because uniformity is ideal, and yet everybody wants to uphold their brand of basketball. Does soccer have different rules based on leagues? I'm used to more insular leagues as an American, and so while I might see different rules between pro and college, I don't know how it works from country to country.

[loteq]

drivel drivel

flame bait

[Russ]

I just now was able to watch the game and was blown away by the quality of it. From a competition angle that was exactly the kind of game I wanted to see.

Spain played so very well and with great moxy, skill, and force. The US earned the win.

As others have said before hand, that is the type of game deserving of a Olympic final. May the next be the same.

Congratulations to all teams on a very entertaining tournament.

[robbe]

robbe nice analysis..what about illegal picks?

damn i'm still waitin for an explanation..why the hell do fiba refs allow illegal picks?
Can you show me footage? I'll comment. Do I think there are no illegal picks in the international game? No I don't.


Spare me that Euro game is better crap. I much prefer the American game to the circus of illegal picks, overly technical and flopping circus that is the Euro game.
I simply examined two scenes from that game. Funny how people react when they were proven wrong and have nothing to say.


clear-cut offensive foul.
NBA yes, FIBA no. So you are not wrong, I guess.

Another try: What is the Euro-travel? Everybody talks about, but nobody can explain it? It's a serious question, no provocation. I've had enough of that in the last 24 hours. ;-)

[Terps54321]

The only circus I'm aware of is the one with clowns, tigers, and trapeze artists. If American basketball is a "circus" what is European ball? An "opera"? A "carnival"? A "birthday party"? A "trip to the dentist"?

[Dtown]

The only circus I'm aware of is the one with clowns, tigers, and trapeze artists. If American basketball is a "circus" what is European ball? An "opera"? A "carnival"? A "birthday party"? A "trip to the dentist"? With the acting by certain teams I'll go with the "movies".

[FRANKY 13]

I love this game. I really adore it and even though Greece was not in great shape, I enjoyed the amount of quality basketball displayed, which was surely enough to draw new fans all around the globe. A quarterfinal and all the medal games were exceptional.

The final was an ad about great bball and the two teams that played proved they belonged there. The US were better and fought in order to earn something they did not deserve between 2002 and 2006, something they lost in 2006 because a young US team was not as mature as it was talented (Also what should be emphasized is the fact that back in 2006 there were 3 teams able to upset them, whereas there was only one in Beijing). With maturity and the greatest player in the world they did it. Surprisingly enough the US improvement in the playmakers' position (Kidd, Williams besides Paul) was not as big of a factor as I thought it would be. Anyway...

Congrats to the US for a big win. I liked Colangelo's humorous statement according to which the players did not know they were signing for 8 years back in 2005 instead of 3...:D That means we are on for a huge 5 year period, full of excitement in the FIBA competitions.

Congrats also to the Spanish squad, which I repeat are undoubtedly the best European team since the last Eurobasket, even though they have not won it.

[cheezdoodle]

NBA yes, FIBA no. So you are not wrong, I guess.


What in the world are you talking about? Show me where in the FIBA rule-book does it state that you are allowed to push your defenders off with your off-hand as you are elevating for a layup? There is no difference between the FIBA and NBA rulebook in that regard, so please stop making things up.

What I've actually found in the last few weeks is that most basketball "experts" have never actually bothered taking a look at the rule book, especially in regards to traveling and such. They are not aware that you are allowed to use either leg as your pivot foot for example (its your choice, regardless of which one is in front of the other) when both feet are on the ground.

So please people, take a look through the rule book before you bring this nonsense onto these forums.

[robbe]

What in the world are you talking about? Show me where in the FIBA rule-book does it state that you are allowed to push your defenders off with your off-hand as you are elevating for a layup? There is no difference between the FIBA and NBA rulebook in that regard, so please stop making things up.
Why should I show you something that doesn't exist? You show me the place where it says that it is not allowed to protect the ball with your off hand.


What I've actually found in the last few weeks is that most basketball "experts" have never actually bothered taking a look at the rule book, especially in regards to traveling and such. They are not aware that you are allowed to use either leg as your pivot foot for example (its your choice, regardless of which one is in front of the other) when both feet are on the ground.
You should be very sure about something before you start to bash people in that way. Your explanation is not sufficient by any means, as it depends on which foot you land on first. If you stand with both feet on the ground, this of course doesn't automatically mean you may choose your pivot foot. Two things can have happened before that: If you landed on one foot first, that foot automatically becomes your pivot foot. Only if you land on both feet at the same time, which is a very unusual scenario if we are talking about fast paced basketball in the open floor, which has exclusively been the case here, the player is allowed to choose his pivot foot. And if you already took a step and landed on two feet, there is no pivot foot. So much for the nonsense and the rule book.

[jhizzle]

Another try: What is the Euro-travel? Everybody talks about, but nobody can explain it? It's a serious question, no provocation. I've had enough of that in the last 24 hours. ;-)

This is the "Euro-Step" robbe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqx7OqmJpL8

Ginobli uses it to avoid charges.

[Alyosha12]

robbe nice analysis..what about illegal picks?

damn i'm still waitin for an explanation..why the hell do fiba refs allow illegal picks?

Why they allow it? Because everybody does it, thats why everybody gets away with it.
Only team USA gets away with traveling.

So if everybody gets away with something illegal nobody really gets away with it and nobody has an advantage.
Only team USA gets breaks when it comes to traveling, thats why it is an advantage for them. Period.

[Alyosha12]

This is the "Euro-Step" robbe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqx7OqmJpL8

Ginobli uses it to avoid charges.

Thats illegal? Why?

[panteluke]

This is the "Euro-Step" robbe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqx7OqmJpL8

Ginobli uses it to avoid charges.

!!!!!!
This is NOT travelling by any rules as far as I know!!!!

[robbe]

This is the "Euro-Step" robbe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqx7OqmJpL8

Ginobli uses it to avoid charges.
Thank you!

I didn't know they call it like that. Judging by the video, the Euro-step is simply when you take a very far step to the side to, like you say, avoid the charge or elude the help defender. But (at least how Manu does it in the clip) it is not a travelling violation.

[Jon_Koncak]

i watched carefully the last 17 minutes of the game(arguably the most crucial ones) to see the blatant travells by united states and honestly i came up with only one..in the fourth quarter usa starts a fast break and lebron takes a step before starting dribling..this leads to an open three by deron williams..on the other hand in the play where Rudy is left wide open in the corner twice(i'm sure most will remeber it) there is a double violation by Spain..fisrt Rudy tries to drive but stucks the ball to his body(double trible) and then reyes gets the offensive rebound but loses his balance and clearly travels before passing the ball to a wide open fernandez..and i mentioned earlier the +1 by Marc Gasol in the fourth which was wrongly not awarded to him..that's it if some spanish fans have some more plays where the refs favored the usa in the decisive moment's i'd be glad to read them..

[Terps54321]

You should write a letter to FIBA about the referees, no one is accomplishing anything complaining about it here. Or write your congressman. If you don't have a congressman, write your mayor. If you don't have a mayor, write your governor. If you don't have a governor, write your prime minister. If you don't have a prime minister, write your president. If you don't have a president, write you're village elder. If you don't have a village elder, write FIBA again. Ask them to stop favoring the Americans, and go back to the pure and good European basketball. You know, the one that Europeans think is the gold standard that everyone should play to. Because God forbid FIBA changes a rule!!!

[Terps54321]

i watched carefully the last 17 minutes of the game(arguably the most crucial ones) to see the blatant travells by united states and honestly i came up with only one..in the fourth quarter usa starts a fast break and lebron takes a step before starting dribling..this leads to an open three by deron williams..on the other hand in the play where Rudy is left wide open in the corner twice(i'm sure most will remeber it) there is a double violation by Spain..fisrt Rudy tries to drive but stucks the ball to his body(double trible) and then reyes gets the offensive rebound but loses his balance and clearly travels before passing the ball to a wide open fernandez..and i mentioned earlier the +1 by Marc Gasol in the fourth which was wrongly not awarded to him..that's it if some spanish fans have some more plays where the refs favored the usa in the decisive moment's i'd be glad to read them..

This game was the most obvious example of poor officiating for both sides. Honestly anyone that watched last night and still claims the US got all the calls is blatantly anti-US team. LOL Rudy had the most ridiculous travel of the tournament when he put it behind his back and took 3 steps. But European fans are never watching when their players travel, but whenever an American player travels it's as if the Apocalypse is upon us and all good in the world is dead.

My point is it's cool for everyone to say the refs suck, because they do. But when you say the suck because they favored the US team, you lose all credibility.

[bfpri]

So team USA won...no surprise. What a disappointing game by team USA though, almost choked the last few minutes, and let the game come to a 11 point margin. With the talent they have, they should be blowing out this team by 30+...Something is wrong here.

[RuleBook]

Why should I show you something that doesn't exist? You show me the place where it says that it is not allowed to protect the ball with your off hand.

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/FIBA/ruleRegu/p/openNodeIDs/897/selNodeID/897/baskOffiRule.html

Rule 6 - 33.2 on page 35 states:

The offensive player, whether on the floor or airborne, shall not cause contact with
the defensive player in a legal guarding position by:
• Using his arms to create additional space for himself (clear-out).
• Spreading his legs or arms to cause contact during or immediately after a shot
for a field goal.

In this instance, the player with the ball cannot use his or her arms to ward out another player to create space---this is very clear according to the rules and does not necessitate a separate rule because it is subsumed by the larger rule. You can certainly have your other hand warding the ball if you are not touching your opponent, but once you start moving and the ward hand comes in contact with the defender, it is the player on offense who has initiated contact.

Warding with ones off hand is illegal despite the fact that it happens in every country and at every level. It falls under 33.8 - charging:

Charging
33.8
Charging is illegal personal contact, with or without the ball, by pushing or moving into an opponent’s torso.

As long as the defender adheres to the rules described in 33.4 (most notably of which is not advancing towards the offensive player while guarding and also using only the body) any contact initiated by an offensive player where they push their hand into somebody's torso is a charge.


A note: You do see a variant of warding called as a charge, particularly in college basketball in the US, where a player will extend the arm to gain space versus a defender to take a shot. The problem is that it is not called consistently enough and in more subtle forms.

[Darthkiller]

So team USA won...no surprise. What a disappointing game by team USA though, almost choked the last few minutes, and let the game come to a 11 point margin. With the talent they have, they should be blowing out this team by 30+...Something is wrong here.

did you even watch the game, it was a 6 point game for the majority of 4th quarter, and it was 2 point at one point. Then spain tried to use fouls doing the last minute and comiitted an unsportsmanlike foul and it give kobe 4 free throws and the ball.

[Jon_Koncak]

So team USA won...no surprise. What a disappointing game by team USA though, almost choked the last few minutes, and let the game come to a 11 point margin. With the talent they have, they should be blowing out this team by 30+...Something is wrong here.

maybe they run out of gas?in the last two games they didn't run as much as they used to..sure argentina and spain took good care of the ball for the most part but usa could start a fastbreak even after their opponents scored..they didn't look for it today..also Usa's defence which looked solid in the group stage really fell apart in the final...

[bfpri]

t was a 6 point game for the majority of 4th quarter, and it was 2 point at one point.

Thats exactly my point. Something is wrong when a team with the talent of the USA cannot blow out Spain.

[robbe]

This game was the most obvious example of poor officiating for both sides. Honestly anyone that watched last night and still claims the US got all the calls is blatantly anti-US team. LOL Rudy had the most ridiculous travel of the tournament when he put it behind his back and took 3 steps. But European fans are never watching when their players travel, but whenever an American player travels it's as if the Apocalypse is upon us and all good in the world is dead.
No. A lot of people (including myself) have complained about how they have not been calling it in general, not just Team USA. USA just takes most profit from it, for obvious reasons. I don't think that's too hard to understand. Rudy had at least one (I'll rewatch soon and look out for more) obvious travelling.

I was wondering why some people were not seeing the things most of us did, but as it turned out now, it is was just due to a lack of knowledge of the basketball rules.

@RuleBook: May I ask where Rudy is creating additional space? He is simply, as I wrote, protecting the ball with his off-hand. I'm well aware of the rules you cited, but that doesn't apply to what Rudy does.

@Jon: I'll do it as soon as I get a hand on the copy.

[RuleBook]

@RuleBook: May I ask where Rudy is creating additional space? He is simply, as I wrote, protecting the ball with his off-hand. I'm well aware of the rules you cited, but there's nothign wrong with what Rudy does.

I wasn't addressing the specific instance (in fact I have not even read that) but was instead talking about the general rule you asked for. The poster you responded to asking for a rule from stated this (in the quote you cited by him there was no allusion to warding in the non-contact sense):

Show me where in the FIBA rule-book does it state that you are allowed to push your defenders off with your off-hand as you are elevating for a layup?

I assumed that your response:

You show me the place where it says that it is not allowed to protect the ball with your off hand.

was in the context of 'pushing off' and making contact--however if you are only talking about protecting it with no contact, then as I mentioned, that's allowed. The scenarios under which the offensive player is making contact or not are clearly differentiable.

[JGX]

Knowing the approch here in Europe towards those games (the difference between group and knockout games is like day and night), there's no doubt they were not playing with the same fire they played today. That doesn't mean they lost on purpose. They just didn't care too much.

Well, if you prefer armchair psychology to facts I suppose I can't stop you. The reality is that almost the entire difference between the group game and the final can be explained by Spain's three-point shooting. People often draw overly broad conclusions about individual games when it really just came down to who did or didn't shoot well. That's why it's important to look at as many games as possible--the shooting evens out to a team's true level over time.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you have against the 2003 FIBA-Americas tournament. It was easily the strongest and most competitive edition of that tournament. Do not confuse it with the 2005 and 2007 versions.

Also remember that this US team is not itself in it's prime...7 of the 10 players that appeared in the gold medal game are 25 or younger. They should have a stronger team in 2010 or 2012 if they can keep the program going.

[Dtown]

Also remember that this US team is not itself in it's prime...7 of the 10 players that appeared in the gold medal game are 25 or younger. They should have a stronger team in 2010 or 2012 if they can keep the program going.

If the US stays together, this has the making of a serious rivalry brewing which is a godsend for the sport imo.

[robbe]

Well, if you prefer armchair psychology to facts I suppose I can't stop you. The reality is that almost the entire difference between the group game and the final can be explained by Spain's three-point shooting. People often draw overly broad conclusions about individual games when it really just came down to who did or didn't shoot well. That's why it's important to look at as many games as possible--the shooting evens out to a team's true level over time.
I prefer watching the actual game over statistics, and I've watched enough of European and international basketball to know how teams approach certain games. It was well obvious Spain was having a rather lackustre performance, while they playing with fire in the final. One part where that might have had an influence on was the three-point-shooting. It might also be that the shooting isolated was better that day, but if you tell Mr.Reneses that this was the single excuse for the 37-point-defeat, I think he'll disagree.;)


Anyway, I'm not sure what you have against the 2003 FIBA-Americas tournament. It was easily the strongest and most competitive edition of that tournament. Do not confuse it with the 2005 and 2007 versions.
I have nothing against it. It just doesn't compare to Olympic semifinals.


Also remember that this US team is not itself in it's prime...7 of the 10 players that appeared in the gold medal game are 25 or younger. They should have a stronger team in 2010 or 2012 if they can keep the program going.
They sure will, if they can keep the players. But I think the latter is doubtful. After all, with all the complaints by franchises about internationals from the NBA participating in the FIBA tournaments, there must be even more of a concern about LeBron James, Kobe Bryant etc. playing WCs, Americas and Olympics too. Because they are even bigger stars. Cavaliers, Lakers etc. cannot be happy about this.

[Leuteris1]

We will probably send a B team and let you guys have a shot. The knowledge that we could win it if we really wanted is enough for us.

The 2002/2004/2006 tournaments need to be re-evaluated in this context as well.


I think you should proclaim the US Olympic and World Champions for all the decade based on the assumption that they could have won all these tournaments if they wanted... How reasonable... :eek: Maybe you should personally be awarded the gold medal in the 100 m olympic race too. Be a bit more serious please....

[Leuteris1]

Yeah because if the refs would have called those mythic traveling calls against the USA, we would have only won by 20 every game instead of 30. :(

Simply you would have lost the final...

[Papaloukas]

Simply you would have lost the final...

Doubt it. We didnt get many fast break opportunities. And those we did, we screwed up. We won the game behind the 3 point arc. So traveling was a none issue.

[Leuteris1]

I watched the Finals, and USA Winning the Gold Medal againts the Spanish Flopmada.

Team USA won their 13th GOLD MEDAL in the Basketball at the Summer Olympics, and they are going to destroy Spain and the rest of the Euro Floppers in the 2010 FIBA World Competition. They didn´t exactly ´destroy´ Spain in the final... So stick to the evidence please...


´´Not the second one (James is still gathering the ball on the first step and takes two legal steps.) and the other two are so ridiculous that I can't believe someone would make a video out of them´´.
You don´t have a clue about what a traveling violation is...


The first and last video have NO effect on the play. For all I care in those instances they can do cartwheels down the court because IT DOES NOT EFFECT THE GAME.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCEbuar7Qas

I Bet Europeans (robbe, greece fans obsessed with steroids) are throwing up at this vid. Who cares! Nobody was close to Francis and for all I care his teammates could have handed him a ladder to climb to the basket... :D

This explanation is pretty subjective. In the final there were many travelling violations from the US that WAS AFFECTING THE GAME!

[Dtown]

I love the notion that if the refs suddenly started calling these "obvious" traveling violations the US would be utterly incapable of adjusting and would continue on heedlessly to their destruction. Whatever helps people sleep at night I suppose.

[joesmoove059]

the Spaniards came closer to the Americans than expected, they played a hell of a game, I enjoyed the Championship game a lot.:D :D

[bolabasket]

I wonder what could have happened if Jose Calderon played for Spain in the final...

[GR8BBALL]

Congrats to both teams for the great game we got to watch!

The US showed great determination and good team-work--Spain showed a lot of guts and came close to an upset.
I hope basketball will gain even more popularity worldwide and the talent pool will become even broader.

[each way]

Hell of a game, best final in the Olympics for a while

[igorotski]

What a game. This is perhaps the BEST GAME I've seen (since Waariors beat the Celtics w/ Baron's last shot). I've already seen Rudy Fernandez coupla times before but god, I just turned into his #1 fan after that game. I'm gonna watch out for him as a Trailblazer. And of course, congrats USA on finally winning the gold and, hats off to Spain who were sooo awesome in the game.

It's annoying though, some GENIUSES on this thread who seem to have taken up masters degree in Basketball officiating try to ruin the great game. What's funny is that most Spaniards show good sportsmanship unlike some other bitter people. haha probably most of them are actually jealous and insecure of either USA or Spain. They hide their frustrations about their own team and vent it out through crying and btching about other games. Well, see you guys in the the sports headlines: "Non-Spaniards, doing a hunger strike in front of FIBA office?"

[loteq]

What a game. This is perhaps the BEST GAME I've seen (since Waariors beat the Celtics w/ Baron's last shot). I've already seen Rudy Fernandez coupla times before but god, I just turned into his #1 fan after that game. I'm gonna watch out for him as a Trailblazer. And of course, congrats USA on finally winning the gold and, hats off to Spain who were sooo awesome in the game.

It's annoying though, some GENIUSES on this thread who seem to have taken up masters degree in Basketball officiating try to ruin the great game. What's funny is that most Spaniards show good sportsmanship unlike some other bitter people. haha probably most of them are actually jealous and insecure of either USA or Spain. They hide their frustrations about their own team and vent it out through crying and btching about other games. Well, see you guys in the the sports headlines: "Non-Spaniards, doing a hunger strike in front of FIBA office?"

Yes, I've noticed that too. Personally I'm taking this silver as a gold, and I am not bitter. I don't know what would have happened if Calderon had played, maybe Spain would have lost?

We cannot know either what would have happened if the traveling was called, and the other spanish fouls had been called, maybe Spain would have won, maybe the US would have won. Pure speculation.

As for the complaining, what I understand is that they don't complain for Spain, they complain for Basketball and fairness in general, and because they do not wish to have NBA-bis in Europe. I share that concern too. It is a genuine debate worth having. But I wish this debate would not happen after this game, which even with its flaws is a beauty we should cherish.

I will repeat my congratulations both to the sensible US BB fans and to the other petulant brats which call themselves fans of the US team, and maybe we can create a thread about the rules issues?

[greenarcher]

does anyone know where i can get a copy of the background music during the awarding ceremonies?

[Levenspiel]

What's funny is that most Spaniards show good sportsmanship unlike some other bitter people. haha probably most of them are actually jealous and insecure of either USA or Spain. They hide their frustrations about their own team and vent it out through crying and btching about other games. Well, see you guys in the the sports headlines: "Non-Spaniards, doing a hunger strike in front of FIBA office?" Well, I noticed Spanish fans here cried about officiating as loud and as frequent as any other fans. Only, this time they were supported by others, too.

I myself do not think these claims are justified. No one is robbed in the final.

[corbalan]

Center position was the weaker position of USA, That's why USA players need to take special atention to Gasol brothers and Felipe Reyes, I think Navarro, Rudy and Jimenez take this opportunity in his ofensive play.
Why didn´t get USA another player for center position?, I know Shaq and Duncan must to rest but, There is no other center?

[greenarcher]

amare is injured, i don't know why they didn't get chandler instead of boozer.

[Unimane]

Center position was the weaker position of USA, That's why USA players need to take special atention to Gasol brothers and Felipe Reyes, I think Navarro, Rudy and Jimenez take this opportunity in his ofensive play.
Why didn´t get USA another player for center position?, I know Shaq and Duncan must to rest but, There is no other center?

I think Howard and Bosh played very well, but this was a criticism leveled at the team makeup before the Olympics. This team was designed more for quickness and ability to guard on the perimeter. I wish that Kevin Garnett was on the team, but he didn't want to play.

As far as anyone else, Shaq is not the player he once was. He old and slow now. Duncan was pissed about the FIBA refereeing last Olympics ("FIBA sucks") and had no interest. Amare Stoudamire has had some injury issues and doesn't seem well suited to the international game because he rarely guards anyone on the perimeter. Chandler was the last guy left off of the 2008 roster, so he could be a possibility for London

So, for London, I can pretty much guarantee you will see Howard among the low posts. He'll only be 26 in 2012 and hitting his prime. Bosh will be 28 and a good possibility, especially with his play in Beijing. Otherwise, two names stand out in the post. One guy who stands a very good chance of being on that team is Greg Oden. He's extremely athletic for a big man and a great shot blocker. He needs to improve his shooting. Andrew Bynum is a potential player for the US as well, although there are some injury issues.

My guess is that you will see Howard, Bosh or Chandler and Oden as the low post presence for the USA in 2012.

[damelo]

Well, I noticed Spanish fans here cried about officiating as loud and as frequent as any other fans. Only, this time they were supported by others, too.

I myself do not think these claims are justified. No one is robbed in the final.

It seems to me Spanish were all right about refs, but, as always, Lits, Greeks, etc... complain about refs.
Still, I don't think anybody got robbed, and, well, the game was great, so, what to complain about?

Anyway, Spanish players, Felipe and Calde, told in interview that if FIBA rules had been applied they would have won.

[hotjam_2]

I wonder what could have happened if Jose Calderon played for Spain in the final...


He was'nt having an exceptional tournement to begin with. As point guard, in 6 games he had only 7 assists(remember, he was 4th in assists in the NBA when he started with the Toronto Raptors). The other point guard, 17 year old Ricky Rubio had 27 assists.
I got to critize Coach K for not using either Michael Redd(3rd leading scorer in the NBA?) or Carlos Boozer. He might of used his team a bit too thin in this game.
Great game! Spain was the only one that could figure out you had to go DEEP to match up with the USA. But one can wonder, with the ovarall poor performances of some of their players like Garbajosa, Bernie Rodrgiuez, Raul Lopez, if they would of gotten Victor Clever, Sergio Rodriguez, and Fran Vasquez instead?

[mayteromanl]

Great game! Spain was the only one that could figure out you had to go DEEP to match up with the USA. But one can wonder, with the ovarall poor performances of some of their players like Garbajosa, Bernie Rodrgiuez, Raul Lopez, if they would of gotten Victor Clever, Sergio Rodriguez, and Fran Vasquez instead?

For me also was an incredible game. I was having problems for awaking up....saturday night, u know. And then my bf jumped from the bed, turned on the tv and shouted me, Spain is winning!!! it was at the beginning of the 1st quarter...

I havent read the whole thread, and probably sb has told it, but this medal in spain is not only a silver one, its being called a white golden medal.

And about men:
Victor Claver, well, probably next European hell go if he goes on improving his game.
Sergio Rodriguez, uff.... you know he's not playing at all in Blazers, and probably he wasnt ready for the olympics, but that's a real pity for he and for NT, he's a very skilled guy.... I hope next year he got more minutes, or leave the team. I also hope Rudy doesnt have same problems.
And about Fran Vazquez, another mistery, I cant still understand what happened with this guy. Before drafted he had an amazing year in Gran Canaria, the moved to Unicaja and his performance was crazy, the was picked 11# overall....and then the mistery, he chose Girona, and his game started to decline.... I really cant understand where the problem is..... and who are his advisors either....
Last summer, instead Garbajosa (one of my favourite playes, by the way) I would have chosen Jordi Trias, he really did a great season, and would have done the same in that tournament.

[damelo]

He was'nt having an exceptional tournement to begin with. As point guard, in 6 games he had only 7 assists(remember, he was 4th in assists in the NBA when he started with the Toronto Raptors). The other point guard, 17 year old Ricky Rubio had 27 assists.
I got to critize Coach K for not using either Michael Redd(3rd leading scorer in the NBA?) or Carlos Boozer. He might of used his team a bit too thin in this game.
Great game! Spain was the only one that could figure out you had to go DEEP to match up with the USA. But one can wonder, with the ovarall poor performances of some of their players like Garbajosa, Bernie Rodrgiuez, Raul Lopez, if they would of gotten Victor Clever, Sergio Rodriguez, and Fran Vasquez instead?

Well, Claver for Garba, all right, Sergio for Raul maybe, but Vasquez for Raul?

Anyway, i think, Calderon could have prevented a few lost balls Spain had with Navarro and Berni as their guards. I think, with him, Spain might have won, ot with any better ball handler than Berni. But, Berni did all right in this tournament, appart from USA games.
With USA playing with lot of ball circulation, they don't need pure shooters, but good mid range shooters as they have a lot. So, Redd may not have been that useful.

[joesmoove059]

I wonder what could have happened if Jose Calderon played for Spain in the final...

well Calderon was almost ineffective the whole tournament. esp. when they faced the USA during the eliminations.

[corbalan]

I think Howard and Bosh played very well, but this was a criticism leveled at the team makeup before the Olympics. This team was designed more for quickness and ability to guard on the perimeter. I wish that Kevin Garnett was on the team, but he didn't want to play.

I think both played very well too, but I think spanish centers hare more powerfull at the picture, That´s why Howard and Bosh cant defense them without help of another. Even sometimes USA defenders on perimeter was trying to prevent spanihs centers (specially Gasol) to take th ball, giving more freedom to spanish on the perimeter.
The same thing occurred at semifinals against Argentina.

[damelo]

http://www.lemonde.fr/jeux-olympiques-tout-le-sport/article/2008/08/24/basket-huit-ans-apres-les-etats-unis-recuperent-leur-titre_1087300_1074125.html

I hate the NBA... French article from paper Le Monde. They don't even name one Spanish player, while naming only the NBA superstars.
This will not help basketball in France

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/news/colu/p/newsid/28387/arti.html



Give me a break, just don't listen and besides the refs were not up to par with the rest of the actors in this festival being constantly overtaken by the infernal rythmn and physicality of the game and missing alot of obvious calls which upset both teams!

All of you readers who thought team USA couldn't be challenged are gonna have to button it up now after this unique final which was closer than the final score indicates.

Just read all the hommages the americans are paying to Spain's resilience and the quality of their play to be convinced of this because the USA players and coaches know how tough and close the game really was!

This was my last olympics after covering five since Barcelona and I feel I must being doing something right because after being considered by french basketball people for years as one of the major reasons that the NBA has overshadowed french b'ball in the country, now some readers feel I'm biased against the americans!


I love this guy, he really is a basketball egghead^^

[RuleBook]

Well, Claver for Garba, all right, Sergio for Raul maybe, but Vasquez for Raul?

Anyway, i think, Calderon could have prevented a few lost balls Spain had with Navarro and Berni as their guards. I think, with him, Spain might have won, ot with any better ball handler than Berni. But, Berni did all right in this tournament, appart from USA games.
With USA playing with lot of ball circulation, they don't need pure shooters, but good mid range shooters as they have a lot. So, Redd may not have been that useful.

Redd is also a slightly overrated 3 pt shooter w/respect to his nba numbers---he more of a volume 3 pt shooter which overshadows the fact that he isn't that much better a shooter than the league avg.

[Unimane]

It seems to me Spanish were all right about refs, but, as always, Lits, Greeks, etc... complain about refs.
Still, I don't think anybody got robbed, and, well, the game was great, so, what to complain about?

Anyway, Spanish players, Felipe and Calde, told in interview that if FIBA rules had been applied they would have won.

They said this? What crybabies. I'll bet they told a Spanish newspaper and didn't have the balls to say that in an American paper, especially with Calderon playing in Toronto.

[Dtown]

I havent read the whole thread, and probably sb has told it, but this medal in spain is not only a silver one, its being called a white golden medal.



Wow, just wow :p

[RuleBook]

They said this? What crybabies. I'll bet they told a Spanish newspaper and didn't have the balls to say that in an American paper, especially with Calderon playing in Toronto.


3rd paragraph

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/dan/200/cien/ganan/elpepudep/20080824elpepudep_15/Tes


another english article which I think uses the Reyes? quote

http://www.sportsya.com/english/news.php/United_States_claimed_Gold_in_Mens_Basketball_Olym pic_Final_with_win_over_Spain.html?id_estruc=283&id=186033

[Unimane]

3rd paragraph

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/dan/200/cien/ganan/elpepudep/20080824elpepudep_15/Tes


another english article which I think uses the Reyes? quote

http://www.sportsya.com/english/news.php/United_States_claimed_Gold_in_Mens_Basketball_Olym pic_Final_with_win_over_Spain.html?id_estruc=283&id=186033

Reyes is a loser. The only player I respect in that whole commentary is Pau Gasol, the only one who wasn't a complete whiner. Reyes sucks, though. "We demonstrated we are better." Really? Was that was when you were 0-2 against the US and losing one of them by 37? How pathetic. I suppose China demonstrated they were better by almost beating Spain, too.

I love how the US blows out 7 teams in a row and, then had one decent game, the other countries have somehow caught up. The other teams targeted the US and tried to beat them up game after game, but nothing worked. Now they are just left whining about refs. Have fun with your "white golds" or whatever.

I am sure to be rooting against Spain at any and every opportunity.

[loteq]

Reyes is a loser. The only player I respect in that whole commentary is Pau Gasol, the only one who wasn't a complete whiner. Reyes sucks, though. "We demonstrated we are better." Really? Was that was when you were 0-2 against the US and losing one of them by 37? How pathetic. I suppose China demonstrated they were better by almost beating Spain, too.

I love how the US blows out 7 teams in a row and, then had one decent game, the other countries have somehow caught up. The other teams targeted the US and tried to beat them up game after game, but nothing worked. Now they are just left whining about refs. Have fun with your "white golds" or whatever.

I am sure to be rooting against Spain at any and every opportunity.

Ok, ok - you are right to be pissed off. I don't like it either that the players complain about the referees, but this was an emotional declaration made just after the game. They just had 2 technicals called against them in the last 20s, so i kind of get that he did not realise what he was doing. At least he did not threaten to rape the referees' mother ;)

Lets just leave this issue behind ok?

[Unimane]

Ok, ok - you are right to be pissed off. I don't like it either that the players complain about the referees, but this was an emotional declaration made just after the game. They just had 2 technicals called against them in the last 20s, so i kind of get that he did not realise what he was doing. At least he did not threaten to rape the referees' mother ;)

Lets just leave this issue behind ok?

I can accept that. I am competitive too and had to revise some of my comments.

Who said they would rape the refs mother? I've gotta hear that story.

[loteq]

I can accept that. I am competitive too and had to revise some of my comments.

Who said they would rape the refs mother? I've gotta hear that story.

Darko, at the Eurobasket 2007

[Czarkazem13]

Whew!

I'm here late so I missed all the commotion.

Either way...USA!!!USA!!!USA!!!

And congrats to Spain for making a game out of it.

Love Rudy and Ricky! Can't wait to seem them in the NBA (I know, I know, that pisses some of you off:p ).

Now we shall see what happens to Team USA; who leaves, who stays, new coaches, and will they still have the drive or will it take another near decade (is there that same hunger to "reclaim" the gold in the World Championships?).

Good times, good times.

While I'm at it, congrats to Nigerian soccer/football team for their run.

[Russ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by damelo
Well, Claver for Garba, all right, Sergio for Raul maybe, but Vasquez for Raul?

Anyway, i think, Calderon could have prevented a few lost balls Spain had with Navarro and Berni as their guards. I think, with him, Spain might have won, ot with any better ball handler than Berni. But, Berni did all right in this tournament, appart from USA games.
With USA playing with lot of ball circulation, they don't need pure shooters, but good mid range shooters as they have a lot. So, Redd may not have been that useful.

Originally posted by RuleBook.
Redd is also a slightly overrated 3 pt shooter w/respect to his nba numbers---he more of a volume 3 pt shooter which overshadows the fact that he isn't that much better a shooter than the league avg.

Just some added stuff that doesn't mean much:

Redd can be extremely streaky, though. Witness his record of most three point field goals made in a quarter with eight versus the Houston Rockets in 2002.

Depending on the game, he could have done some big damage on any given day.

The question is, how does he get playing time over the guys in front of him? The answer you and I both know is that he doesn't. He was an insurance policy in case someone got hurt, plus he really fit in with the team concept Colangelo and Coach K was looking for.

FWIW.

[corbalan]

I can accept that. I am competitive too and had to revise some of my comments.

Who said they would rape the refs mother? I've gotta hear that story.
Unimane, I´m from Madrid, and I´m a Real Madrid fan (where Reyes plays), and he is a fantastic fighter, a great player, but sometimes it seems like a child... or something worst..., and this time it´s one of then.
I think this time we have to see Aito declarations, more "fair play"... not Reyes.

About Milicic declarations after Greece - Serbia macht at eurobasket 2007, see link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woWqSmichOo&feature=related

[mayteromanl]

Have fun with your "white golds" or whatever.

I am sure to be rooting against Spain at any and every opportunity.

Is it sth personal??? It seems...

We're not having fun about our white gold, we consider it like that, and we dont say your NT isnt the best. We consider that medal like that, because we really did a good job, and we're happy with that. Are you bothered with with that? is our feeling

[Unimane]

Unimane, I´m from Madrid, and I´m a Real Madrid fan (where Reyes plays), and he is a fantastic fighter, a great player, but sometimes it seems like a child... or something worst..., and this time it´s one of then.
I think this time we have to see Aito declarations, more "fair play"... not Reyes.

About Milicic declarations after Greece - Serbia macht at eurobasket 2007, see link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woWqSmichOo&feature=related

Hahahahaha....WOW!!! After watching Darko play for four years in the NBA, I had no idea he cared at all about basketball.

But, it does remind me of the "double standard" quote by Jason Kidd. Had an American said those things, he would have been suspended by the NBA and created an international incident. Everyone would have been talking about the "arrogant and ugly Americans".

Back to the Reyes comment. I'll cut him some slack. I'll still look forward to playing Spain again, though only because yesterday was such a great game.

[loteq]

Is it sth personal??? It seems...

We're not having fun about our white gold, we consider it like that, and we dont say your NT isnt the best. We consider that medal like that, because we really did a good job, and we're happy with that. Are you bothered with with that? is our feeling

Yes, I should have pointed out that this white gold thing has nothing to do with the player's declarations or the referees. It's just that the people are satisfied with the silver and feel it's almost like gold, thus a white golod medal.

[SergioRodriguez]

I am just proud.
We won the 2006 WC, but yesterday's loss left me with the same feeling of proudness than two years ago.
Congrats to the US Team. Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and Dwane Wade put them in another level.

[ronnegrita]

Reyes is a loser. The only player I respect in that whole commentary is Pau Gasol, the only one who wasn't a complete whiner. Reyes sucks, though. "We demonstrated we are better." Really? Was that was when you were 0-2 against the US and losing one of them by 37? How pathetic. I suppose China demonstrated they were better by almost beating Spain, too.

I love how the US blows out 7 teams in a row and, then had one decent game, the other countries have somehow caught up. The other teams targeted the US and tried to beat them up game after game, but nothing worked. Now they are just left whining about refs. Have fun with your "white golds" or whatever.

I am sure to be rooting against Spain at any and every opportunity.

It's funny that you talk about crybabies and whiners, dou you remember Olympics Games in Munich??? At least Spain accepted to take his silver medal, did you did the same in 1972?

[loteq]

Hahahahaha....WOW!!! After watching Darko play for four years in the NBA, I had no idea he cared at all about basketball.

But, it does remind me of the "double standard" quote by Jason Kidd. Had an American said those things, he would have been suspended by the NBA and created an international incident. Everyone would have been talking about the "arrogant and ugly Americans".

Back to the Reyes comment. I'll cut him some slack. I'll still look forward to playing Spain again, though only because yesterday was such a great game.

Yes, well we had a taste of how unforgiving and stubborn your media can be just before the olympic tourney ;) And I believe that it's true that the standard is higher for american players. Political correctness has not (yet) reached these peaks over here. You did not even know about the incident which says a lot. I guess much of the US media that got a hold of the slanted eyes controversy did not hear about this. I guess, too that this did not offend every mother in the US, as apparently the photo did with every Asian American.

[Unimane]

Yes, I should have pointed out that this white gold thing has nothing to do with the player's declarations or the referees. It's just that the people are satisfied with the silver and feel it's almost like gold, thus a white golod medal.

If this is the case, then I take back my statement, like I put in the post above.

[robbe]

Reyes just said what many thought anyway. Some try to be politically to correct, some must take care that they don't burn their bridges, some can't speak more than two straight sentences anyway without mentioning that they just want to win basketball games. Most say nothing. Reyes just says it straight out, even if it might be unpopular, the "bad loser"-tag is guaranteed. I thought that was refreshing after a tournament and the games in general where everything was supposed to look good and the results were almost all wonderfully in place.

[SergioRodriguez]

About the refs, I am not angry at them.
I think they just did what they were told to do.
I am not talking about favoring the USA team, but about the way they had to officiate, with somewhat of a mix between FIBA and NBA rules.
I am sure of it. I know Brazauskas and Jurgenbrand saw some blatant travelling violations made by USA players that they didn't whistle, and I know they were not favoring them on purpose.

[Jon_Koncak]

maybe the Spaniards should take advantage of ref's tolerance towards travelling and take a step or two in their own fastbreaks..but they realised it about..3 seconds before the end when Navaro walked from spain's basket to the middle court and ofcourse wasn't whistled...not too bright guys i guess :p

[SergioRodriguez]

maybe the Spaniards should take advantage of ref's tolerance towards travelling and take a step or two in their own fastbreaks..but they realised it about..3 seconds before the end when Navaro walked from spain's basket to the middle court and ofcourse wasn't whistled...not too bright guys i guess :p
Navarro did 4 steps before puting the ball on the floor.
I think Brazauskas feel shame in that exact moment.

[DelijaZauvjek]

Awesome match...Spain fought it out till the end and they deserved that silver for sure.

Of course it was impossible to beat the Americans, even if they were slightly leading or not too far behind because of the star one on one players like Lebrom, Wade, Kobe, among others toward the end of the game. That's when they shine. Also, I think that USA was no adjusted to the hoop and the ball and that's the main reason their free throws sucked among other things.

Great game! Can't wait till the World Championship...hopefully Serbia can involve themselves in the mix.

Also, congrats on Argentina getting the bronze =D

Very fun Olympics and i'm sad it's over =/

[Jon_Koncak]

Navarro did 4 steps before puting the ball on the floor.
I think Brazauskas feel shame in that exact moment.

yeah still i think it was a clasless move..imagine if Usa's players in the last second of their semifinal against argentina somehow imitated..Duncan's phantom fouls that were called against him..or started setting movin picks..people here would demand their heads on a plate..

[Genjuro]

yeah still i think it was a clasless move..imagine if Usa's players in the last second of their semifinal against argentina somehow imitated..Duncan's phantom fouls that were called against him..or started setting movin picks..people here would demand their heads on a plate..
Of course we would. We love to hate Americans. That's part of the enjoyment.

[Jon_Koncak]

you may be sarcastic but sadly that's kinda true..personally i'm not the biggest Usa team fan(when they lost to Argentina for the first time i was literally screamin from joy) but this time i feel they won fair and square..i thought they would be given some credit for this achievement but i feel some people here are too biased against them to admit that they simply were the best team of the tournament..

[Dtown]

Yes, I should have pointed out that this white gold thing has nothing to do with the player's declarations or the referees. It's just that the people are satisfied with the silver and feel it's almost like gold, thus a white golod medal.

ah that's better, hearing Reyes comments I thought they were connected.

[Samuel]

maybe the Spaniards should take advantage of ref's tolerance towards travelling and take a step or two in their own fastbreaks..but they realised it about..3 seconds before the end when Navaro walked from spain's basket to the middle court and ofcourse wasn't whistled...not too bright guys i guess

You can't ask a player to change how his movements only for a game (specially to break the rules), because they are instinctive. Those players have practiced since they were kids to put the ball in the floor as soon as possible, and they have assimilated it, they just can't change it easily.

Obviously, the reverse is also true, and that's the whole point. NBA players don't travel on purpose, it's something instinctive and they don't pretend to gain advantage doing so (while sometimes they get advantage, others it's just irrelevant). It's somewhat unfair for them, and that's the reason because the refs decided to not apply strictly the rulebook.

But there's a basic principle in sport: rules should be equal for everyone. Bending the rules to suit someone's style it's a form of favoritism.

Anyway, they are the best team and deserve the title. I'm not questioning that.

[oranJe]

Well said, Samuel. I think that's exactly what happened

[damelo]

You can't ask a player to change how his movements only for a game (specially to break the rules), because they are instinctive. Those players have practiced since they were kids to put the ball in the floor as soon as possible, and they have assimilated it, they just can't change it easily.

Obviously, the reverse is also true, and that's the whole point. NBA players don't travel on purpose, it's something instinctive and they don't pretend to gain advantage doing so (while sometimes they get advantage, others it's just irrelevant). It's somewhat unfair for them, and that's the reason because the refs decided to not apply strictly the rulebook.

But there's a basic principle in sport: rules should be equal for everyone. Bending the rules to suit someone's style it's a form of favoritism.

Anyway, they are the best team and deserve the title. I'm not questioning that.

What is the rule in American basketball out of the NBA? Is the third step allowed in NCAA?

[RuleBook]

What is the rule in American basketball out of the NBA? Is the third step allowed in NCAA?

It's called the 'Tyler Hansbrough Exception" :p

[europeoverall]

It's called the 'Tyler Hansbrough Exception" :p
LOL, this made be laugh hard.

[BigMac]

Just some added stuff that doesn't mean much:

Redd can be extremely streaky, though. Witness his record of most three point field goals made in a quarter with eight versus the Houston Rockets in 2002.

Depending on the game, he could have done some big damage on any given day.

The question is, how does he get playing time over the guys in front of him? The answer you and I both know is that he doesn't. He was an insurance policy in case someone got hurt, plus he really fit in with the team concept Colangelo and Coach K was looking for.

FWIW.


The US has some really good shooters. I don't understand why they didn't include a Jason Kapono on the roster. You could at least have kept JJ Redick and Novak. Those guys can score from the three point line anytime and they are specialists at shooting the 3 ball. Next time, I think that there should be the inclusion of at least one 3 point specialist on the NBA squad. Redd is supposed to be a 3 point specialists but he's a chucker. He needs multiple opportunities to get going while Redick, Novak, and Kapono do not. Sides we need a token white guy on our team lol.

[Unimane]

The US has some really good shooters. I don't understand why they didn't include a Jason Kapono on the roster. You could at least have kept JJ Redick and Novak. Those guys can score from the three point line anytime and they are specialists at shooting the 3 ball. Next time, I think that there should be the inclusion of at least one 3 point specialist on the NBA squad. Redd is supposed to be a 3 point specialists but he's a chucker. He needs multiple opportunities to get going while Redick, Novak, and Kapono do not. Sides we need a token white guy on our team lol.

Redick is Trajan Langdon, Part II. I don't see him in the NBA very long. Kapono and Novak are grat shooters, but I don't want anyone who can't play defense. The US will always be able to score, defense has been hit or miss.

[RuleBook]

Redick is Trajan Langdon, Part II. I don't see him in the NBA very long. Kapono and Novak are grat shooters, but I don't want anyone who can't play defense. The US will always be able to score, defense has been hit or miss.

kevin martin might fit the bill

[rikhardur]

Congrats to USA, they came back to their best days. Dominant team through the tournament, I guess their victory offers no dispute, even if some criticise their game and the refs. Everything balanced, they were indeed the best team. I'm yet to watch the game (oh yes :rolleyes:).

[Phantim3dx]

wasnt that darko the gangster in eurobasket? someone pull up his famous "gulp, gulp" quotes on youtube!



Ok, ok - you are right to be pissed off. I don't like it either that the players complain about the referees, but this was an emotional declaration made just after the game. They just had 2 technicals called against them in the last 20s, so i kind of get that he did not realise what he was doing. At least he did not threaten to rape the referees' mother ;)

Lets just leave this issue behind ok?

[mvblair]

A fun article from ESPN's magazine, praising the great game.

The Sports Guy (http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3575385) -- ESPN Magazine, Bill Simmons

I can't let the Gold-Medal Game go. USA 118, Spain 107. One of the 10 most dramatic basketball games of my lifetime. And nobody gave a crap or even knew. The game started at 2:30 in the morning ET and vanished into thin air. Only West Coasters and super-diehards stayed up to see it. Everyone else woke up Sunday, heard the score, caught the highlights and never thought about it again.

When was the last time a truly great sporting event completely slipped through the cracks? That never happens anymore. Ever! I feel about 3% cooler just for being one of the few who watched it live.

Consider the following:

• You do realize that all those points were scored in 40 minutes, right? This was like a Nuggets-Spurs game in 1978, only this time there was a gold medal at stake, so everyone was playing out of their minds. The two teams combined to make 41 of 65 field goals, 13 of 22 threes and 35 of 41 free throws—in the first half.

• The Spaniards hung with America's finest even though a) star point José Calderón was injured; b) star scorer Rudy Fernández battled foul trouble all game; and c) they made the goofy decision to play with first names on the backs of their jerseys (shades of Cadwallader University in Fast Break). So how did they hang around? They got a few sneaky baskets on back doors and high screens. Fernández (22 points in 18 minutes) hit a few bombs. The U.S. needed a fire extinguisher to put out Juan Carlos Navarro, who made an absurd collection of floaters, runners and you-gotta-be-kidding-mes. And in the upset of the century, the Gasol Bros. (32 points) totally overwhelmed Dwight Howard and Chris Bosh inside.

(You heard me, the Gasol Bros.! On the Black Sheep Brother Scale, Marc moved out of a three-way deadlock with Don Swayze and Jeremy Giambi after this game. He still has a little way to go to catch Frank Stallone, though.)

• Ricky Rubio started for Calderón and was solid, if not great. But the feat itself? Do I need to remind you he's the same age as Jamie Lynn Spears? Imagine Team USA picking Chris Paul and a high school kid as its point guards, then Paul missing the gold-medal game and the teenager holding his own? How many commercials would he be filming right now? Twenty? The nonstop Pistol Pete comparisons are beneath Rubio; his defensive instincts, playmaking and athleticism bring him closer to a hybrid of Scottie Pippen and a young Magic—if they happened to look like one of the Jonas Brothers. I love Ricky to the point that I might move to whatever NBA city gets him. You think I'm kidding.

• Dwyane Wade's 27 points off the bench. I forgot how much I missed him. When a Spaniard tripped Wade at the end of the first half it sent me (and whichever other Americans were still up) into full-fledged "Oh, you want a piece of us, Spain?!" mode. It was just the extra motivation I needed. Why? Rooting for Kobe and Coach K is like rooting for the house in blackjack. It never stops feeling wrong, and you never stop secretly wanting to turn on them. When Nike brilliantly used Marvin Gaye's rendition of the national anthem in its commercial, I was pretty much swayed; you could have talked me into caring about a team featuring Kevin Federline, Jimmy Fallon and Spencer Pratt after that. But some scrub from Spain nearly blowing out Wade's knee? It was on.

• You can't beat three incompetent FIBA refs speaking different languages for providing an I-hope-this-doesn't-turn-out-like-the-last-three-seconds-of-the-'72-Olympic-gold-medal-game edge. Just when Spain was fading, Fernández caught the on-fires from Navarro and YouTubed Howard with a hellacious dunk. But he fouled out on an egregious touch foul (Kobe's game-altering four-point play), and Spain cried conspiracy after. Problem is, those bozos called a whopping 55 fouls and looked more wobbly than a 93-year-old backing out of a driveway. Fun wrinkle, especially if you wanted to have a two-hour heart attack.

• Not one, not two but three festering Team USA weaknesses bubbled up. First, they lacked a KG-like defender who could patrol the paint and fix every lapse on D, as well as a Bruce Bowen-like perimeter stopper to squash high screens. And guess what: The Swayzes worked over the Howard/Bosh combo, and Navarro killed the U.S. on the same high screen at least 45 times. The suits spent more than two years picking this team and failed to find the only two defenders they needed? Really?

Second, Coach K kept starting a washed-up Jason Kidd (can't shoot, can't play slash-and-kick) over Chris Paul and Deron Williams (only the two best American point guards right now). This was the elephant in the room for two weeks. Kidd would tread water, and Paul and Williams would wreak havoc. Meanwhile, Coach K pretended it wasn't happening, and NBC's Mike Breen and Doug Collins totally ducked the issue. Only when Spain threatened in the second half did Paul and Williams alternate playing the final 16 minutes because, you know, K realized he actually needed to win the game. The good news: He gets to deduct the charity minutes he gave Kidd at tax time.

Third, for most of the Games, Team USA had an alpha dog issue. Was this Kobe's team or LeBron's? Fast-forward to 8:13 left: Fernández's three cuts the lead to two; the crowd is going bonkers. Spain's bench reacts like a euphoric 15-seed during a March Madness upset, and the U.S. calls timeout. All along, my biggest fear had been a tight game and multiple USA guys saying, "I got it!" Instead, everyone deferred to Kobe, who made some monster plays to clinch it. Know that in the history of the NBA we have never had the best-player-alive argument resolved so organically. Incredible. Kobe, you have the Lord of the Flies conch. Use it wisely.

• Had the Americans blown this one, the Choke Job Hall of Fame would have a new wing. Kobe, Bron, Wade and Coach K would have been stained forever (not to mention Howard, whose stock slipped at a Bear Stearns speed in the medal round). Imagine the pressure on Team USA during that timeout. After all the rhetoric and BS, after all the hype about choosing the right team, everything was slipping away. Could there be more pressure than that? I say no.

Yeah, they just barely prevailed over an opponent they should have beaten handily. This was still the most dramatic non-Phelps moment of the Olympics. I know one person who attended the game (my friend Hirschy, an NBA nut) who spent 20 minutes recapping it a week later, repeatedly telling me, "You had to be there—this was tense!" No kidding.

I could tell that at the final buzzer, when 12 filthy rich grown-ups began to celebrate like Little Leaguers. No posturing, fake crying or rehearsed dance routines, just hugging and more hugging. We wanted a selfless team that cared. We wanted a team to come through when it mattered. We wanted one unforgettable game. We got all of it—well, those of us paying attention, anyway.

And that's why I hope neither NBA TV nor ESPN Classic ever replays this game. It belongs to me and the lucky few who watched it live and sweated it out. God bless America. Hell, I might even start rooting for Coach K and Kobe after this.

(On second thought … nah.)

[Neozyrus]

A fun article from ESPN's magazine, praising the great game.


Cmon man, tell me its not true that most people there didnt give a damn about one of the best finals ive ever seen.

By the way, i will say my opinion, USA won fairly, but imo sometimes it didnt seem to me that both teams were playing with FIBA rules. I counted around 8 fouls of Howard, the same of Lebron (and 6/7 of M.Gasol :P), countless travellings, some really really weird ref's decisions in a couple of plays made by Wade......

But once i heve said this, i must admit that even if all that wouldnt have happened, USA probably would have won, they played really well, and as i said they truly are the fair olympic champions.

(And im sorry but I just loved what Navarro did in the last seconds, i really laughed a lot)

[mvblair]

Cmon man, tell me its not true that most people there didnt give a damn about one of the best finals ive ever seen. No, I think the author is wrong. I think you're right. I think most basketball fans cared enough to watch the game. It was even repeated the evening after the match, so I'm sure a lot of people cared about it.

[Dtown]

No, I think the author is wrong. I think you're right. I think most basketball fans cared enough to watch the game. It was even repeated the evening after the match, so I'm sure a lot of people cared about it.

Bill acknowledges the hardcore fans, but yeah 2:30 in the morning with the US running through the tournament. A large chunk of the fanbase on the US missed it, and while some caught the replay, the replay is not the same as seeing it live, especially when you already know the outcome.

Personally I know a lot of die hard fans who simply had work the next day and had no chance of seeing it live, so I agree with Simmons in this case.

[GregFos]

I would've watched, but it was so late, and you're right, replay isn't the same

[Czarkazem13]

I would've watched, but it was so late, and you're right, replay isn't the same

That's where Tivo comes in. Watch it whenever you want, just avoid finding out the results first (plus you can skip commericals).:D

[kestas]

Personally I know a lot of die hard fans who simply had work the next day and had no chance of seeing it live, so I agree with Simmons in this case.

question is would these fans watch their favourite NBA team in the Finals at that time?

[damelo]

In France, some people wake up for NBA Finals at 3am... The ones who have Canal +.

[Phantim3dx]

what the hell?!?! u guys put speed or ecstacy in your wine or something thats crazy!


In France, some people wake up for NBA Finals at 3am... The ones who have Canal +.

[damelo]

I'm serious, teenagers, even the ones who are not that basketball freaks, wake up. I never had the right channel to watch those games, and i used to dl them on the web, but some of my friends who are soccer fans woke up.
To watch the best sport commentator in French TV also i guess, aka Georges Eddy.

[Dtown]

question is would these fans watch their favourite NBA team in the Finals at that time?

Well like I said, it was that they had work and the fact they completely demolished Spain the first time they played them. Still I tortured them relentlessly for missing it.

Hearing these stories about France, makes me damn glad about my timezone. Doing this late night, early morning thing is fine for a couple weeks, but for a full season? Yeah no way I could manage that, not a teenager anymore :p

[jugoplastika]

what the hell?!?! u guys put speed or ecstacy in your wine or something thats crazy!

Waking up at 3 am? They are not alone, au contraire... ;)

It is usual among the basketball fans, at least in Balkan region(ex-yugo countries)... Even if people have no TV channel to watch the game, they buy satellite receiver and watch match/es live... :D :)
As I know, bball fans do it also in other Eeropean countries, but then it depends on how popular is bball in those countries.

I`m going sometimes with friends to a local coffee-bar: on Sunday we watch an NBA match at 9 or 10 p.m., and when it all comes to playoffs, we are waiting(or sleeping 1-2 hour :D ) untill 3 a.m., and then we are drinking, watching, and making jokes untill 6 a.m. :D

And tomorrow most of us have to work or go to college in the morning. :cool:

[Mortified Penguin]

I wish I was able to watch this badboy live but unfortunatly, I live in California (Bay Area) and I have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet. At least no one spoiled the results for me so, it was new to me.


BTW,

Hi guys,

I'm new around here.


Yay me!!!

[mvblair]

I wish I was able to watch this badboy live but unfortunatly, I live in California (Bay Area) and I have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet. At least no one spoiled the results for me so, it was new to me. It's tough to go through the day knowing that the game has been played, but trying not to find out the results. It reminds me of a "Seinfeld" episode where Jerry taped a Mets game and didn't want to know who one...

Anyhow, what did you think of the game? Pretty good, huh?

I'm new around here. Good to have you aboard, MP!

[ÑBA]

:D Hahaha, I´m happy to see USA needs the refs to win Spain...Hahahaa. Olympic comitee just need USA players go to he olympic games and the refs incredible shame for them...I´ve watch 17 times the final, ànd counted 26 fatal errors of the refs...a total of 19 no deserved points for USA, and a lot of points Spain should have tried... USA doesn´t deserved to win. Big surprise for me, I neved dreamed to see Spain basketball team playing at the same level of USA NBA players...

[Mortified Penguin]

It's tough to go through the day knowing that the game has been played, but trying not to find out the results. It reminds me of a "Seinfeld" episode where Jerry taped a Mets game and didn't want to know who one...

Anyhow, what did you think of the game? Pretty good, huh?
Good to have you aboard, MP!



I thought this was one of the greatest Bball games I have seen. I've been watching Basketball since 87 and I would put this up there with some of the Bulls v Pistons Playoffs games I still have on tape. Great players on both teams, crazy shots, lead changes. You couldn't have scripted a better outcome.

[Phantim3dx]

okay i know this is trollbait and im a bit stupid for biting on this one but i cat help to wonder...you watched it 17 times, well im glad u wasted that time watching it, who knows you might have hrut yourself if doing something else


:D Hahaha, I´m happy to see USA needs the refs to win Spain...Hahahaa. Olympic comitee just need USA players go to he olympic games and the refs incredible shame for them...I´ve watch 17 times the final, ànd counted 26 fatal errors of the refs...a total of 19 no deserved points for USA, and a lot of points Spain should have tried... USA doesn´t deserved to win. Big surprise for me, I neved dreamed to see Spain basketball team playing at the same level of USA NBA players...

[stuart]

okay i know this is trollbait and im a bit stupid for biting on this one but i cat help to wonder...you watched it 17 times, well im glad u wasted that time watching it, who knows you might have hrut yourself if doing something else

Hey, that's complete love for the game, man. I used to watch games I loved over and over, not sure if any game every hit 17 views, but it's definitely the love. I use to tape every single Detroit Pistons game and rewatch them. I've watched NBA SuperStars DVD/VHS at least 200 times... the majority coming in the 1990s...

Stuart

[Phantim3dx]

stu

i have no problem with watching tapes or videos over and over, because i do it also. watching it over and over to prove a point and be blatantly bias about a particular event i think is wasting time, not to mention it wont change anything that in the end USA got the W and Gold, and some sore loser is still whining about it.

to sum it up i will let sir sean connery explain my meaning

a-pIwA-E-UY


Hey, that's complete love for the game, man. I used to watch games I loved over and over, not sure if any game every hit 17 views, but it's definitely the love. I use to tape every single Detroit Pistons game and rewatch them. I've watched NBA SuperStars DVD/VHS at least 200 times... the majority coming in the 1990s...

Stuart

[robbe]

Here's a little christmas present from the French referee who officiated the Olympic final.


Talking about gifts, who does not remember the Olympic Games Final of 2008. It was the French referee Chantal Julien who officiated during the decisive game between Spain and the USA. And now, in an interview with the French magazine Basketnews, Chantal comes back to this memorable game with the following words: You don’t call the same things on the Americans than you do call on other teams. You have to call the most evident of the evident things. If you call a travel every time that Kobe Bryant starts a drive, you will get a call, you as the referee…During the final, the Spanish team has been penalized on the US travels. With the consequences that we know at the end with the two technical fouls on non-called traveling violations. This was embarrassing …
Source (http://www.ballineurope.com/countries/greece/x-mas-cigarettes-2/)

Everybody enjoy the Christmas days. :):):)

[damelo]

Here's a little christmas present from the French referee who officiated the Olympic final.


Source (http://www.ballineurope.com/countries/greece/x-mas-cigarettes-2/)

Everybody enjoy the Christmas days. :):):)


Yes, i read that interview last week end. Well, this is what the basketball is now. refs lets the guys make the decision on the court, despite some violations.

[Jon_Koncak]

nice nice,some random french referee gets his 15 minutes of fame and Robbe another chance to push his anti-NBA agenda on the forum.a small detail though,there was no Chantel Julien refereeing at the olympics final.:confused:

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/08/olym/men/scheResu/p/eventid//gamename/A/groupname/38/langlc//roundid/6454/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html

Referee: Romualdas BRAZAUSKAS (LTU)
Umpire: Pablo Alberto ESTEVEZ (ARG), Carl JUNGEBRAND (FIN)

[Dtown]

nice nice,some random french referee gets his 15 minutes of fame and Robbe another chance to push his anti-NBA agenda on the forum.a small detail though,there was no Chantel Julien refereeing at the olympics final.:confused:

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/08/olym/men/scheResu/p/eventid//gamename/A/groupname/38/langlc//roundid/6454/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html

Referee: Romualdas BRAZAUSKAS (LTU)
Umpire: Pablo Alberto ESTEVEZ (ARG), Carl JUNGEBRAND (FIN)

Little things like facts shall not deter robbe :p

[Levenspiel]

According to FIBA's site, the only US game Chantal Julien officiated was against Germany, in the second group phase.

So, he was not lying, but from his comments someone incorrectly concluded that he was the ref in the final. Of course this fact lessens the significance of his words a lot, because on the final he was just an observer like all of us, and I don't agree with him. But we can still consider his words in the context of Germany game.

[robbe]

Little things like facts shall not deter robbe :p
Never. :p

I should have double-checked I guess. ;)

So he [pardon: she] didn't officiate the final game, but another one. Still, quite interesting words from a referee, aren't they? Saying she will "get the call" if she doesn't give the advantage to the US stars ...

I would like to see some guys' reaction if some random NBA referee openly admitted that one club was being heavily favoured by the referees. ;)

[Petran]

Here's a little christmas present from the French referee who officiated the Olympic final.


Source (http://www.ballineurope.com/countries/greece/x-mas-cigarettes-2/)

Everybody enjoy the Christmas days. :):):)

Actually the referee is a "she" not "he" and she whistled not the US-Spain match but the US-Germany.

She doesn't say something new; this is something that we all observed. And unfortunately it fits well with the statement of the FIBA president, who claimed that if we want to catch up with the Americans we should learn their game.

Same shit - simply the US couldn't afford another unsuccessful campaign.

[FRANKY 13]

According to FIBA's site, the only US game Chantal Julien officiated was against Germany, in the second group phase.

So, he was not lying, but from his comments someone incorrectly concluded that he was the ref in the final. Of course this fact lessens the significance of his words a lot, because on the final he was just an observer like all of us, and I don't agree with him. But we can still consider his words in the context of Germany game.

Oh common guys, the referee talks specificaly about GENERAL GUIDELINES given to ALL referees.

So yes , she didn t whistle the final, but we can assume , those guidelines were given also to the referees tha actually whistled the final.

Anyway we didn t need the referee to tell us that US players travel in practically every offense.

That said , those guidelines are pretty fair. I mean you cannot expect players that learned for 20 years to drive in a particular way, to change within 10 days just for a specific tournament.

Being a big fan of the NBA , I watch a lot of games, and seriously if a european referee officiated a Miami-Cleveland game by european standarts, he would whistle a travelling violation every single minute.

The referees in the OLYMPICS have to close their eyes to some of the travelling violation of the american players , since , if they didn t , we wouldn t have a ball game.

[Federoy]

The referees in the OLYMPICS have to close their eyes to some of the travelling violation of the american players , since , if they didn t , we wouldn t have a ball game.

Officiating is as much about interpretation as it is about enforcing rules. All of the incessant hand checking/hooking, inconsistancies on "act of shooting" plays and moving picks/screens often found in the international game have been largely cleaned up in the NBA. I don't have a problem when people point out that NBA players get away with travalling so as long as they're aware that international players playing under FIBA rules also benefit from interpretations that are different in the NBA.

[Petran]

Oh common guys, the referee talks specificaly about GENERAL GUIDELINES given to ALL referees.

So yes , she didn t whistle the final, but we can assume , those guidelines were given also to the referees tha actually whistled the final.

Anyway we didn t need the referee to tell us that US players travel in practically every offense.

That said , those guidelines are pretty fair. I mean you cannot expect players that learned for 20 years to drive in a particular way, to change within 10 days just for a specific tournament.

Being a big fan of the NBA , I watch a lot of games, and seriously if a european referee officiated a Miami-Cleveland game by european standarts, he would whistle a travelling violation every single minute.

The referees in the OLYMPICS have to close their eyes to some of the travelling violation of the american players , since , if they didn t , we wouldn t have a ball game.

Problem is that the opposition players haven't learned to play this way...

And I didn't see international players being allowed to defend harder against Kobe etc.

In addition, the rules are supposed to be FIBA rules. Complying with them should be a USA team problem.

Suiting FIBA rules to NBA players habits is not a fair option.

[Levenspiel]

Oh common guys, the referee talks specificaly about GENERAL GUIDELINES given to ALL referees.

So yes , she didn t whistle the final, but we can assume , those guidelines were given also to the referees tha actually whistled the final.

Anyway we didn t need the referee to tell us that US players travel in practically every offense.


Hey Franky, I agree we can assume those kind of guidelines (or "threats") were true and given to all the refs, but we need more evidence to confirm that. As i said in the previous post, we can still discuss Germany game in the spotlight of the referee's words.

However. for the final, it's different. She said:

...During the final, the Spanish team has been penalized on the US travels. With the consequences that we know at the end with the two technical fouls on non-called traveling violations. This was embarrassing …
Can you imagine what kind of a situation it would be when a ref couldn't do anything about it even when she thought what happened in a game officiated by herself was embarrassing!! That would be no less than a scandal..

However, we learnt this was not case.

[T.W.Is.M.]

Problem is that the opposition players haven't learned to play this way...

And I didn't see international players being allowed to defend harder against Kobe etc.

In addition, the rules are supposed to be FIBA rules. Complying with them should be a USA team problem.

Suiting FIBA rules to NBA players habits is not a fair option.


Yet they were allowed 2 set their picks the "european way".
I agree the rules were FIBA rules. However, FIBA rules don't mention anything about players moving at the picks. And since the rules difference is so big, beating the USA under FIBA rules doesn't make a team a better bball team, but a better team under FIBA rules. Just like team USA would b the best team under NBA rules.

[Federoy]

If Chantal Julien indeed said this, then it's somewhat cowardly for her to come out months after a result and openly complain about American players gaining some advantage because FIBA's brass supposedly sent a "decree" to its refs about travelling. If she stood on her principles and believed in fairness as an official then she should have resigned and made her thoughts known during the Olympics or shortly thereafter, not months later during an interview with a French magazine whose motives none of us know.

Floating suggestions and rumors through the media is so piss-poor and weak that it's hard for me to take her seriously. It comes off sounding like sour grapes that the Americans won, which for some in Europe is a setback to the internationalisation of basketball, instead of someone who is creditable.

People on this forum have been circling this wagon for years as far as the US players travelling, as if such an advantage is so overwhelming that it negates any accomplishment the US has. People will bitch and complain about any mediocum of evidence that the Americans are getting favoritism from FIBA, and all the while ignoring other ugly characteristics of FIBA basketball: moving screens/picks, hooking (offensive player takes his arm and wraps it around a defender, typically on a spin move), hand checking, and low post wrestling. Basketball is suppose to be free-flowing, non-contact sport. It wasn't meant to be played like greco-roman wrestling.

I'm all for uniformity in the rules; if the US players are travelling--which even I observe sometimes--then they should be blown on it, but if the Euros/others are getting away with other violations that give them a clear advantage then whistle that as well.

[Phantim3dx]

i pretty much let you do the talking and the lazy bum that I am will second you on your thought.


If Chantal Julien indeed said this, then it's somewhat cowardly for her to come out months after a result and openly complain about American players gaining some advantage because FIBA's brass supposedly sent a "decree" to its refs about travelling. If she stood on her principles and believed in fairness as an official then she should have resigned and made her thoughts known during the Olympics or shortly thereafter, not months later during an interview with a French magazine whose motives none of us know.

Floating suggestions and rumors through the media is so piss-poor and weak that it's hard for me to take her seriously. It comes off sounding like sour grapes that the Americans won, which for some in Europe is a setback to the internationalisation of basketball, instead of someone who is creditable.

People on this forum have been circling this wagon for years as far as the US players travelling, as if such an advantage is so overwhelming that it negates any accomplishment the US has. People will bitch and complain about any mediocum of evidence that the Americans are getting favoritism from FIBA, and all the while ignoring other ugly characteristics of FIBA basketball: moving screens/picks, hooking (offensive player takes his arm and wraps it around a defender, typically on a spin move), hand checking, and low post wrestling. Basketball is suppose to be free-flowing, non-contact sport. It wasn't meant to be played like greco-roman wrestling.

I'm all for uniformity in the rules; if the US players are travelling--which even I observe sometimes--then they should be blown on it, but if the Euros/others are getting away with other violations that give them a clear advantage then whistle that as well.

[Federoy]

What's even more damning about her comments is that for someone who implicates that the US got some unfair advantage, it's strange that the US were mysteriously kept in foul trouble throughout the game (especially in the first half), keeping the Spanish on the foul line which inabled them the stay in the game. So there's enough room for her to speculate that her colleagues swallowed their whistles on US travelling yet say nothing about the US being "penalized" by the tight, often bias officiating? So that makes sense.

[damelo]

If Chantal Julien indeed said this, then it's somewhat cowardly for her to come out months after a result and openly complain about American players gaining some advantage because FIBA's brass supposedly sent a "decree" to its refs about travelling. If she stood on her principles and believed in fairness as an official then she should have resigned and made her thoughts known during the Olympics or shortly thereafter, not months later during an interview with a French magazine whose motives none of us know.


Well, I think it's not much unknown here, Americans were advantaged... :D:D:rolleyes::D:D

Anyway, Basketnews is now the only mag with it's derivatives to write mainly about Non-NBA basketball, and about all aspects of French basketball. Their last issues were mainly focused on FFBB federal elections.
That interview of Chantal Julien was mainly an interview of the first lady to officiate in an Olympic Final(Athens), and the only representative of French Ball in Beijing.
Still, it was much more about difficulties for a woman to be amongst males refs, about the acceptance by her colleagues.
On the polemic part: Also, she spoke about a game of Women's world champs in Brazil, saying she was to follow FIBA director decision about continuing or not the game while it was raining outside, and also inside... This may not be the best part of the FIBA, but I think she told what she thinks.
Well, making polemics about that article was foolish, as the subject of those questions were mainly the dream to be part of such an event.

Here's the Final they talked about: http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/08/olym/wom/scheResu/p/eventid/4005/gamename/A/groupname/38/langlc/en/roundid/6449/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html

Can't find the one of Athens... Page deleted apparently.

[KWSN-Men]

If Chantal Julien indeed said this, then it's somewhat cowardly for her to come out months after a result and openly complain about American players gaining some advantage because FIBA's brass supposedly sent a "decree" to its refs about travelling. If she stood on her principles and believed in fairness as an official then she should have resigned and made her thoughts known during the Olympics or shortly thereafter, not months later during an interview with a French magazine whose motives none of us know.

Floating suggestions and rumors through the media is so piss-poor and weak that it's hard for me to take her seriously. It comes off sounding like sour grapes that the Americans won, which for some in Europe is a setback to the internationalisation of basketball, instead of someone who is creditable.

People on this forum have been circling this wagon for years as far as the US players travelling, as if such an advantage is so overwhelming that it negates any accomplishment the US has. People will bitch and complain about any mediocum of evidence that the Americans are getting favoritism from FIBA, and all the while ignoring other ugly characteristics of FIBA basketball: moving screens/picks, hooking (offensive player takes his arm and wraps it around a defender, typically on a spin move), hand checking, and low post wrestling. Basketball is suppose to be free-flowing, non-contact sport. It wasn't meant to be played like greco-roman wrestling.

I'm all for uniformity in the rules; if the US players are travelling--which even I observe sometimes--then they should be blown on it, but if the Euros/others are getting away with other violations that give them a clear advantage then whistle that as well.

I will let the bolded words embarass you on their own.

Where did the NBA physical game that Euro players can't compete go?

Pure BS.

I also like the fact that you think that an actual ref is not credible when talking about instructions given by the governing body of the sport. Who is credible then? David Stern? :D

Wow, this was hilarious :D:D:D

[Federoy]

I will let the bolded words embarass you on their own.

Where did the NBA physical game that Euro players can't compete go?

Pure BS.

I also like the fact that you think that an actual ref is not credible when talking about instructions given by the governing body of the sport. Who is credible then? David Stern?

Wow, this was hilarious

You should be more embarassed at how completely fucking ignorant your statement sounds. Had you carefully read what I wrote you would've noticed that we're talking about two seperate issues: You're talking about some perception, held by Americans or otherwise, that Euros are soft and can't compete against NBA players (BTW, nowhere in my passage did I mention or imply that. You decided to assume that BS your own).

I was merely pointing out that the basis of the sport is NON-CONTACT, which underscores the formation of rules that penalize players by A) giving the opposing team freethrow attempts and/or B) disqualifaction after 5 or 6 fouls. NBA, Euroleague, FIBA or whatever; free-flowing, non-contact is the essence of basketball. If it weren't, they'd be waring helmets and pads and there would be no fouls. If you can't understand that then perhaps you should choose another sport to watch.

And as it relates to the French ref, the only reason I brought it up was to highlight the physicality of FIBA Basketball, and how the low post wrestling, defensive hand checking and moving screens destroy the free-flowing, non-contact nature of basketball. So while all these malcontent Euros on this forum are bitching about Americans travelling, they don't seem to notice that on the international level the game is hampered by other problems that are just as troubling as when travelling isn't whistled.

As for her credibility, well...it's obvious to me that proof isn't required for you to believe something. Had she produced a memo or recorded a phone conversation or had another referee backed her up then she would have solid evidence to secure her claim. But just to openly claim, "oh...the Americans got away with travelling because FIBA's executives said so" with no proof is slanderous horse shit.

As I mentioned before, if she was so struck at how blatant FIBA was twisting its rules in favor of the US then she should've opened her mouth while the Olympics were in progress and not months later when the coast was clear. That does speak to her integrity. And if that doesn't strike you as odd then perhaps you're a bigger joke than she is.

[Federoy]

making polemics about that article was foolish

While I can appreciate her story, that doesn't give her the right to make serious allegations without backing them up with some form of evidence. There's nothing foolish about calling somebody out for making a public statement that is baseless, unfounded.

[robbe]

As I mentioned before, if she was so struck at how blatant FIBA was twisting its rules in favor of the US then she should've opened her mouth while the Olympics were in progress and not months later when the coast was clear. That does speak to her integrity. And if that doesn't strike you as odd then perhaps you're a bigger joke than she is.
That is easy for you to say as someone who doesn't suffer the consequences, but it is not realistic. Participating in such a big event as the Olympics, you just don't throw it away by making critical statements in the public towards the federation you are working for. We all want outspoken athletes [and referees] but it has been shown in the past they just don't want to risk losing everything by making critical comments. How many athletes actually sent a political message while in China? After all the big talking prior to the games? I may have missed it, but I can't think of one. Because they knew they'd get punished. And that was a way bigger topic. Just human nature. The same reason why no NBA ref comes forward talking about the star system. They don't want to lose their job. The best chance maybe to hear something from them is when they've already retired. That is what makes those few people that have the courage to blow the whistle so special.

I don't know if this particular referee is courageous, as I don't know her. I guess she was posed a question and just answered honestly. Or she just didn’t choose her words carefully enough. You try to discredit her in any possible way. Allow me to say that your rant on her sounds a little ridiculous, at least from my perspective.

Before the tournament I wrote a little preview in this forum on Team USA [we had a pretty good discussion there], which included one statement at the bottom, which nobody had a problem with at the time: That they’d have huge problems if travelling was called as it had been called e.g. in some pre-Olympic friendlies in 2004. I perfectly remember their first preperation game that summer against Italy in Cologne, right in front of my door so to say. The arena was full of NBA fans who wanted to grab that chance to see their heroes play. USA got called for travellings all night long. In the end, Italy won by seventeen points, the big stars looked foolish and the crowd turned 180 degrees. At the end of the game, Italy was given a standing ovation. Of course it was only their first game, they maybe had jetlag and Italy’s Basile was having a big day [which he is known for], I’m not saying they’d get blown out every time. However since then there has been a clear development, and as some here probably don’t give a damn on my opinion, I’d like to refer to Jeff Van Gundy [a well-respected basketball expert AND American], who I recall saying [while covering the 2008 NBA Finals] that you’d have to interfere on every possession if you called travelling like it should be called, as the players are used to have it officiated differently. As we probably all agree that it is impossible to adjust the moves you’ve done all your life in just a couple of weeks preparation time, and if we don't question the basketball knowledge of Jeff Van Gundy [I don't think anyone of us qualifies to do that] it is a logical assumption that they committed loads of travelling violations in the Olympic Games, which matches with the observations of many people that saw the games. Those, of course, were called bad losers and haters.

Of course you’ve got a point about hand-checking, physical play and screening, even if the differences between NBA and Europe are in my opinion smaller than it is advertised as far as the moving screens go. It is like “in Europe they only play the zone and it rains threes”. There might be fractions of the truth in such a statement, but reality is still a bit different. Of course they allow a bit more here, but they also call it inconsistently, which is a problem in European basketball, not just with the moving screen. On the other hand, you can witness loads of moving screens in an NBA game as well nowadays. The physical play is obviously a big part, and I don’t think anyone will deny it.

It is not important anyway to compare all these advantages and disadvantages and have pointless discussions about what would have been IF. As for my understanding, the point why many [including myself] are very dissatisfied with the way things have developed in FIBA basketball is that there’s an obvious exception being made for the NBA stars in order to make them look good on this stage and subsequently make FIBA make profit off them, after the disastrous outings of 2002-2006 [I don’t think they where all disastrous, but media made it certainly look that way]. Of course you won’t agree, and you probably want phone calls and bank accounts, but that’s the way it looks to me. I can live with knowing that FIBA is trying everything to make profit of course, not a big surprise actually. The problem is that some of those games were almost unwatchable. And that is not only my opinion, e.g. a lot of unbiased people on basketball forums who have no business with NBA, FIBA basketball, European basketball or whatever but have been working with junior teams or are officiating in lower leagues thought those games were "ridiculous".

[Federoy]

I perfectly remember their first preperation game that summer against Italy in Cologne, right in front of my door so to say. The arena was full of NBA fans who wanted to grab that chance to see their heroes play. USA got called for travellings all night long. In the end, Italy won by seventeen points, the big stars looked foolish and the crowd turned 180 degrees. At the end of the game, Italy was given a standing ovation. Of course it was only their first game, they maybe had jetlag and Italy’s Basile was having a big day [which he is known for], I’m not saying they’d get blown out every time.

Please robbe! You're completely mis-characterizing what took place in Cologne. By 2004, Europe's love affair with NBA superstars had already lost its novelty. It wasn't as if the beloved Michael Jordan and his Bulls were coming to town. For all intents and purposes the 2004 team was a poorly conceived, patched together collection of second tier players (i.e. Murbury, Odem, Jefferson) mixed with raising, yet unproven stars (i.e. Wade, James) that didn't have the prestige or fame of a Magic Johnson, Larry Bird or Charles Barkeley.

While I believe there were plenty of Germans and others who saw some in that group as "heroes", most Europeans at the Italy/US game already decided what side they were pulling for if the moment was right (and indeed the moment was right!). When you say the crowd "turned 180 degrees" that implies the crowd was in favor of the US from the opening tip and that the underdog Italians gradually won support, which is a very romantic assessment of what really took place. More than any other region, fans in the European basketball community don't want to see the US win over their national team or other national teams representing Europe.

After the Germany disaster, The same script followed in Belgrade vs. Serbia & Montenegro, in Istanbol vs. Turkey and in Athens vs. the field. The crowds were overwhelmingly against the US squad throughout Europe, even while in Athens against non-European opponents. Hell, even in the US their own countryman were against them! This wasn't a liked team by any scretch, but I've always believed that it wasn't the players' fault they looked foolish but those who put them in a position to look foolish (namely Larry Brown & staff and the officials at USA Basketball who were responsible for putting that team together.)



I don't know if this particular referee is courageous, as I don't know her. I guess she was posed a question and just answered honestly. Or she just didn’t choose her words carefully enough. You try to discredit her in any possible way. Allow me to say that your rant on her sounds a little ridiculous, at least from my perspective.

She must be courageous robbe, because either her fellow colleagues are scared shitless to tatty tell on FIBA's executives or the whole affair was simply made up or exaggerated. At any rate, I don't know this woman's motives so I'm in no position to claim speculation as fact.

Apparently you don't find it odd that these statements were made months after the Olympics have passed. I'm willing to go along with your reasoning about her not speaking out during a much politicized Olympics, but three months later? Fuck a magazine interview. Why not speak out a week after the games? or a month perhaps? Why not call a press conference and devulge your findings, even if it meant putting your career in jeopardy? Oh, that's right, that's not REALITY by your judgement. It's about PRINCIPLES, and I have to call her's into question if she can't stand by them in the face of some supposite scandel. If you want to give her a free pass that's your perogotive, but don't expect me to. Frankly you're entitled to your perspective about my ridiculous opinions. Far be it for me to try to convience those who are bent on believing their own realities.


It is not important anyway to compare all these advantages and disadvantages and have pointless discussions about what would have been IF

So it's only "pointless discussions" when you're confronted with the realities that the international game is plagued with its own faux pas like low post wrestling and moving screens, which are embedded in the international game on a far deeper level than in the NBA. You harp about travelling because by your estimation it benefits the US, no? Otherwise all of your rantings over the past four years would be mute. Face it, most Europeans only complain about rule interpretations when it doesn't suit them, and that's why little is mentioned about other aspects on rule interpretations that hurt the game and favor the FIBA brand of basketball. Are you really interested in cleaning up the sport by standardizing the rules or are you just another member of the chorus bitching because your pet peeve, travelling, isn't called consistently enough, thereby giving the Americans some unfair advantage? I'm all for respecting the "proper" calls when it comes to travel violations on NBA players so as long as the rest of the interpretations are officiated fairly.


As for my understanding, the point why many [including myself] are very dissatisfied with the way things have developed in FIBA basketball is that there’s an obvious exception being made for the NBA stars in order to make them look good on this stage and subsequently make FIBA make profit off them

So who came up with this grand theory? How exactly does FIBA profit from making US stars look good? Are you suggesting that David Stern and the folks he represents are giving FIBA kickbacks in order to secure favorable officiating? Such theorizing truly belongs on an internet blog forum.

My guess is that any new (keyword, "new") rule interpretation/development that has the slightest hint of NBA influence will be met by European purist as a corruption of the game, and they'll immediately claim that it's being done to give an unfair advantage to pre-madonna American super stars. And I'm sure with the 2009-10 changes taking place (abolishing the trapazoid paint and extending the 3-point line) people are already pointing to those items as proof.

Doesn't it seem contradictory to FIBA's stated goal of promoting the sport worldwide if it's complicite in allowing one country to win on its own terms? It would seem to me that FIBA would have a greater impact on promoting the sport by NOT patronizing US success to prove that parity now exists in basketball and that the sport has a place in an otherwise soccer crazy world. This theory doesn't hold water because it works against FIBA's self-interest. The NBA certainly has a business interest in promoting itself as a global brand, but it does that independently of FIBA (and has been doing so for 30 years), and it doesn't need an international governing body to do its bidding. FIBA doesn't collect a single penny from what the NBA generates in sales and TV contracts; they're completely seperate entities. And if FIBA does see a jump in viewership and prestige (translating into advertising dollars) because of NBA players, those compulsory gains don't outweight FIBA's bottomline of trying to promote what's best for the sport. Call me naive, I don't give a shit.

[1Dream Basketball]

two great teams in a great championship1

[Yojanda]

haha look at the anti-american brigade of europeans in this thread. i read another thread at a relatively diverse forum-where the posters actually knew basketball-and guess what they were whining, moaning, and bitching about? NOTHING!

p.s. actually one poster did mention somethng about marc gasol's steroid rage.

[damelo]

haha look at the anti-american brigade of europeans in this thread. i read another thread at a relatively diverse forum-where the posters actually knew basketball-and guess what they were whining, moaning, and bitching about? NOTHING!

p.s. actually one poster did mention somethng about marc gasol's steroid rage.

You planned to make friends here :D :p ;)

People here know stuff about basketball, be sure about that ;)

[LittleLouie]

The BBall at the Olympics was OK in 2008 for my opinion. I love the US.

[jaz08]

USA !!! is the team to beat in the olympics this year. They must assert themselves because of what they got last Olympics and WC.

[focos]

Without Calderon 107 points against USA was very hard to made.

Even we lost we must be proud. i dont know what would happen if calderon played the olympic final. we would have more chances to win. i don't say that Spain would have won sure but more chances clearly because Calderon is a NBA guard.

No National Team had scored that amount of points against USA neither olympics nor Worldbasket and probably it will take 30 or 40 years to see it.

[Chigusa]

Without Calderon 107 points against USA was very hard to made.

Even we lost we must be proud. i dont know what would happen if calderon played the olympic final. we would have more chances to win. i don't say that Spain would have won sure but more chances clearly because Calderon is a NBA guard.

No National Team had scored that amount of points against USA neither olympics nor Worldbasket and probably it will take 30 or 40 years to see it.

I'm not sure about that focos, I mean you obviously know your team better, but Jose played in the first game in group play. He played well in the first half, yet it was still a blowout. It is hard to say how that game would have played out if you add other players. That game was just 'right' for almost every player involved. Maybe adding another player totally alters the course of that game? You know like how they say about going back in time? :D That was an offensive shootout, the game was also called very tightly..many points were scored on the line..so that is where the point total comes from imo.

Calderon is a better NBA player than Navarro, but Juan Carlos went off in that final game (I believe part of this was because USA was not allowed to breathe on him, but I digress on that :D). I think a great FIBA player gives a team the same, if not more of a chance than an NBA player..imo the FIBA player will have more respect from the refs. Spain severely challenged the U.S with a similar style, but I honestly don't see a team beating the U.S with an NBA Phoenix Suns like offensive approach. Since 2002 the U.S has averaged over 100 points vs Spain. I think it will take a blend of near offensive perfection and a more disciplined defense that Spain has displayed vs U.S..the last teams to that were Greece & Argentina.

What is scary though is how easily Spain put the defensive clamps down on teams in this most recent Eurobasket. :eek: They displayed tremendous team defense in the knockout stages. If Spain is indeed better on defense, and they can translate it to the WC then they will be extremely difficult to beat.