Why do I believe that if the exact same words came from any other mouth they would b just a respectable opinion???Originally Posted by ArkadiosV2
Don't know about you but i take djwardim words very seriously, while most of things coming out of Ioannides' mouth are pure shit. Thanks.
Your time is up my time is now,
you can't see me my time is now...
"Basketball is like the church. Many attend it, but few understand it"
If u smell what the G.L. is cookin'...
The Demon of Greek loby is here!
What a player that Koufos (i think his name is) the big guy for the Greek Under 21's is.
Seems to have it all, and for a big man what a great touch he has, destined for big things i believe..
The youth competitions are over and maybe it is time to draw a balance.
The greek U20 disappointed completely. Only Verginis seems to be a promising prospect. Let us remember that he was also named MVP of the last greek junior all-star-game.
Manolopoulos was missing in this team. He is considered one of the best if not the best talents in Greece. He got hardly an pt when playing for PAOK. However, when got a chance against OSFP in the PO, he surprised everybody with a grat performance. He moved to Mallorca this summer, obviously in order to get more pt and to improve.
The U18 was extremely successful by winning the silver medal. Koufos has the chance to develop into the best greek basketball player ever. He will be the leader of greek NT in the next 15 years.
Matalon and Pappas are good guard projects with quite good performances. Let us not forget that most of their points were achieved by means of 1-1-situations. The greek coach totally failed tactically( No pick and rolls, hardly any effective screens, playing with 4 guars and Koufos...) in contrast to the serbian coach. Matalon will have the chance to improve in the NCAA, while Pappas is supposed to become a member of Panellinios' men's team.
Sarikopoulos (who is born in 90) will also play in the NCAA, according to greek TV probably for Florida. This is a strong an tall guy, who has the potential to become a more than solid big man.
Let us finally remember that-according to Vasslakopoulos- Nick Kalathis is going to join greek NT next summer.
The greek U16 played quite well, although ending 7th. Especially striking: guards Papapetrou (1,94m), Aggelopoulos (1,94) and Katsibelis (2m). However it is too early to make predictions at this age.
Summa summarum, the future of greek basketball looks good and I am optimistic that we will be able to maintain the level of greek NT in the next 10 years!
Shit, was that under 18 with Koufos! Thats quite scarey.
Hey Thrylos so you are taking the opportunity to improve your english, too. At least the time spent in this forum is not totaly wasted.
Serbia is the best example that to win youth competition does not mean that you will have a good senior team, automatically.
In addition our senior team has more than one player who was never included in the roster of any junior national team but now belongs to the senior nt core.
-Hey Thrylos so you are taking the opportunity to improve your english, too. At least the time spent in this forum is not totaly wasted.
Serbia is the best example that to win youth competition does not mean that you will have a good senior team, automatically.
In addition our senior team has more than one player who was never included in the roster of any junior national team but now belongs to the senior nt core.
You are right.
-Papaloukas became a star at the age of 27
-Diamantidis had his break-through at the age of 24
-Bouroussis who started playing basketball at 18, had his break-through at 23 (last season)
-Tsartsaris did not get a chance in A1 and went to Island(!), when he was about 20.
-Kakiouzis was number 5 in the hierarchy of our "golden" generation in 95 (behind Rentzias, Papanikolaou, Giannoulis, Karagoutis), like Sloukas in the current team)
-Papadopoulos, who won a medal with the U18, was not a star in the team (Fotsis and Diamantopoulos lead it). He developed into one of the most dominant centers in Europe when he was transferred to Dynamo.
No, he isn't right..-
You are right.
Papaloukas became a star when in Panionios. His 2000-01 season (age 23 to 24 back then) helped him become the starting PG of the NT in the 2001 Eurobasket.
Quite close, but still inaccurate. Diamantidis had his breakthrough year when 22 (2002-03). The same summer (2003) he played in the Eurobasket of Sweden.
Bouroussis didn't start playing basketball when 18. He had immense talent and became famous at age 19, when he managed a 10-point performance in the sole AEK win against Panathinaikos in the A1 finals of 2003, that AEK failed to defend its title of 2002. Breakthrough season is still debatable (might be this one or his last one with AEK), but Bouroussis won't be 24 before November
Tsartsaris went to Iceland when he was 18. The year after, he moved to Near East.
Kakiouzis was, along with Rentzias and Papanikolaou, one of the three big stars of the u-19 NT.
He made a name for himself already back then, along with Diamantopoulos and Pettas. Fotsis (clearly the most talented kid back then) was not the star of this team... Papadopoulos also was a key for Panathinaikos' Euroleague Final Four success in Bologna in 2002. His debut with the senior NT took place in 2001 and summer of dominance started back in 2004, in the Olympic Games.
Sexuality when one reaches their 30s is either mainstream or sick, but no matter what, it isn't pure
Thanks a lot for your historical survey about greek basketball. But this does not change the fact that Diamantidis, Tsartsaris and Papaloukas never played in a junior national team for Greece!
I am not sure if even Chatzivrettas and Dikoudis have been playing in any junior national team.
So half of the current senior national team did not participate at any youth tournament and still they are basic players for the national team.
well, let's see...
Obviously, we have a different understanding of the word "star". If you consider a player being a "star" because he was starting pg in this desastreous period of our national team,-->ok, in my eyes Papaloukas became a recognized star in 2005. In 2001, he was considered a loser after missing all these ft against Germany, while today he has the status of Gallis' successor.
Well, in my eyes being starter in Iraklis is not a criterium for a real break-through. His perfomance in Sweden can not be compared to that of today. In Sweden Papaloukas and Charissis were clearly in front of him. He was a third-string-pg. Therefore, I do not agree with you.
In 2004, Obradovic took him over to PAO where he finally developed in what he is now. Actually, he is still improving at the age of 27. Just think of his 3p-shot.
Concerning the start:
-->"A 23-year old center who only started playing organized basketball 5 years ago after giving up on his career as a swimmer"
link: http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=2161
Referring to a single game 4-5 years ago, is a joke.
Last year he had an average season with AEK. This year he had to compete with Sofo,Stack,Zizic for pt. At the beginning no opportunity was given to him by Gershon. But he used his first chance immediately with unbelievable performances in the Euroleague:
2p: 75,6%, 41% 3p.
He was THE discovery of the greek league in this year and was elected most improved player of this season.
OK, my mistakeIt does not change the fact that he was not considered at all when was young.
Karagoutis was considered much more talented than Kakiouzis at that time. We can argue about Giannoulis-who was a member of PAOKS generation X(along with Rentzias and Peja)
Fotsis was definetely the star together with Diamantopoulos. Fotsis was unstoppable in this tournament with a rof of coast-to-coast baskets against his inferior opponents.
In fact, Papadopoulos contributed a lot in the final of 2002 against Andersen. In general, he could not live up to Obradovics expectations and was "chased away". It is a fact that in Moscow he has become what he is actually now: one of Europe's best centers!
Well, it's really tempting to include DraftExpress' link (I will come into the surprising position to disagree with them, though I was writing for Jon for the past three years)... Even more tempting, when it comes to Bouroussis, whom I interviewed 26 months ago for DraftExpress and I wrote his profile for the site.
http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=118
http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1019
But, if this isn't enough, you can just check when Yannis started playing basketball here (if you consider FIBA as an official site when it comes to player info):
http://www.fibaeurope.com/Default.as...4}&season=2002
When it comes to the rest... Diamantidis' season in Iraklis (2002-03) was pretty much the best all-around one of a Greek player in recent history. 12.0 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.6 spg, 0.9 bpg.. Next year? 14.8 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.2 spg and 0.8 bpg and the MVP of A1..
By the way, Karagoutis was a key player for the U-19 WC winners, Kakiouzis was a star. Karagoutis, yeah, he had the most potential, but it wasn't even close in the court. He was more of a contributor, though a starter at SF, standing 6-10... Giannoulis didn't even play in 2005 (he won gold in 2003 cadet EC, but that's another story). He was injured.
The 1977 guys (Papaloukas, Dikoudis, Hatzivretas) were all in junior NTs, yet only Dikoudis was a star for them.
Papaloukas' stats with U-22 NT in 1998 (qualifying round only, then he was cut): http://www.fibaeurope.com/Default.as...4}&season=1998
Dikoudis/Hatzivretas/Tsartsaris (supertalent, was 2 years younger than the rest and still included in the final round roster of the U-22 EC in 1998): http://www.fibaeurope.com/cid_KNce8j...eamID_291.html
Diamantidis as a youngster was always useful for the squads he was joining:
http://www.fibaeurope.com/cid_KNce8j...eamID_291.html
This comes from the disastrous 2000 U-20 EC. By the way, Fotsis (again the most talented guy there, was not the team's best).
But let's keep the discussion on Fotsis for a min, indeed a true junior super-talent, yet not as productive as you guys claim in this thread:
As a cadet (1997): http://www.fibaeurope.com/default.as...1}&season=1997
As a junior (1998):
http://www.fibaeurope.com/default.as...5}&season=1998
As a Young Man (2000):
http://www.fibaeurope.com/default.as...4}&season=2000
At the end, ALL of today's NT players have played with the junior NTs, only Papaloukas has not participated in the Final round of a tournament. The point you are trying to make is that only some of today's stars were stars as juniors.
Sexuality when one reaches their 30s is either mainstream or sick, but no matter what, it isn't pure
One can relativate everything and emphasize different aspects. My main point is that our NT has players like Fotsis, Spanoulis, Zissis and also Sofo (although he is not included this year, but who is still young and develop into a star if he pays attention to his fitness and health) who were considered super talents when they were playing in youth competitions and have developed into key players of our NT (Sofo only to some extent) and there are other guys who did not shine to that extent and developed much later like Papaloukas, Diamantidis, Papadopoulos.Well, it's really tempting to include DraftExpress' link (I will come into the surprising position to disagree with them, though I was writing for Jon for the past three years)... Even more tempting, when it comes to Bouroussis, whom I interviewed 26 months ago for DraftExpress and I wrote his profile for the site.
http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=118
http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1019
But, if this isn't enough, you can just check when Yannis started playing basketball here (if you consider FIBA as an official site when it comes to player info):
http://www.fibaeurope.com/Default.as...4}&season=2002
When it comes to the rest... Diamantidis' season in Iraklis (2002-03) was pretty much the best all-around one of a Greek player in recent history. 12.0 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, 2.6 spg, 0.9 bpg.. Next year? 14.8 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.2 spg and 0.8 bpg and the MVP of A1..
By the way, Karagoutis was a key player for the U-19 WC winners, Kakiouzis was a star. Karagoutis, yeah, he had the most potential, but it wasn't even close in the court. He was more of a contributor, though a starter at SF, standing 6-10... Giannoulis didn't even play in 2005 (he won gold in 2003 cadet EC, but that's another story). He was injured.
The 1977 guys (Papaloukas, Dikoudis, Hatzivretas) were all in junior NTs, yet only Dikoudis was a star for them.
Papaloukas' stats with U-22 NT in 1998 (qualifying round only, then he was cut): http://www.fibaeurope.com/Default.as...4}&season=1998
Dikoudis/Hatzivretas/Tsartsaris (supertalent, was 2 years younger than the rest and still included in the final round roster of the U-22 EC in 1998): http://www.fibaeurope.com/cid_KNce8j...eamID_291.html
Diamantidis as a youngster was always useful for the squads he was joining:
http://www.fibaeurope.com/cid_KNce8j...eamID_291.html
This comes from the disastrous 2000 U-20 EC. By the way, Fotsis (again the most talented guy there, was not the team's best
But let's keep the discussion on Fotsis for a min, indeed a true junior super-talent, yet not as productive as you guys claim in this thread:
As a cadet (1997): http://www.fibaeurope.com/default.as...1}&season=1997
As a junior (1998):
http://www.fibaeurope.com/default.as...5}&season=1998
As a Young Man (2000):
http://www.fibaeurope.com/default.as...4}&season=2000
At the end, ALL of today's NT players have played with the junior NTs, only Papaloukas has not participated in the Final round of a tournament. The point you are trying to make is that only some of today's stars were stars as juniors.
I think you could easily agree to it without argueing whether Diamantidis had his breakthrough in 2003 or 2004 or if Bouroussis start playing basketball with 16 or 18.
On the other hand we had a lot of dominating star players in youth competitions like Rentzias, Papanikolaou, Tapoutos, Diamantopoulos who have not lived up to the expectations, often due to questionable work ethic.
So my main conclusion is, that it is extremely difficult to extrapolate from achievements in youth competitions to the senior level, as much more factors influence their development than simply their talent (coaches, pt, work ethic, team,injuries...)
Well, I am becoming bored of the whole issue and, thankfully, your reply agrees to what I already posted before. Just try not to write irrelevant things (not always, but in some cases), because there are people here who can explain what has happened in reality.
By the way, in this NT, where everything is relevant, yeah, there are three players who can be considered as the centerpieces. Papaloukas (its leader), Diamantidis (its most important player) and Papadopoulos (the offensive focus). However, it was Zisis (in 2005) and Spanoulis (the year after) that led the team in scoring, although they are all considered more of key players than stars.
Sexuality when one reaches their 30s is either mainstream or sick, but no matter what, it isn't pure
The whole needless discussion started when you questioned some details of my original post. Alltogether, you had the same opinion with me from the beginning. Nevertheless...
Oh I am so sorry that I borred you!
Chatzivrettas, Ntikoudis and Tsartsaris took the 11th place in the U20 ec back in 1998.
The 11th place is the last but one. Yes that really proofs that a succesful junior team gives rise to a successfull senior team.
Diamantidis,Papaloukas,Chatzivrettas,Tsartsaris,Di koudis were not members of our cadets and juniors teams.However some of them had some minutes with the U20 team.
A third player of the greek U18 team decided to play in the NCAA next season. After Kostas Koufos (Ohio State) and Marios Matalon (Wyoming Cowboys), 17-year old Zisis Sarikopoulos will join the University of Alabama (UAB).
One more reason to follow the NCAA closer next season
talking about young greek talent
you should watch my 7 year-old cousin
(i'll wait a few years and then i will be his manager, hehehe, $$$$)
@ Marios Matalon mention in an early Wyoming Cowboys preview:
(((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))
2007-08 Wyoming Basketball Preview
August 22nd, 2007 Top 144 Previews, Wyoming
By Joel Welser
Wyoming Cowboys
Overall Rank: #83
Conference Rank: #4 Mountain West
2006-07: 17-15, 7-9, 5th
2006-07 postseason: none
Wyoming struggled down the stretch of the season, but with a couple superstars on the perimeter, the Cowboys will be back in the race for a Mountain West championship. Brandon Ewing and Brad Jones combined for 38.0 points, 7.6 assists and 8.3 rebounds per game. The comparisons between the two are obvious. Both can run the point, but working on the assist to turnover ratio is vital for Ewing and Jones. Neither is consistent from long range but will keep the defense honest and occasionally hit a shot from beyond the arc instead of driving the lane. With this dangerous duo on the floor, Wyoming can beat anybody. The development of 6-5 wing Eric Platt may end up being very important for Ewing and Jones. Platt, a sophomore, proved to be a consistent long range shooter as a freshman and if he continues to develop, it could open things up for the big time scorers in the backcourt.
Who’s Out:
A handful of transfers are causing some concern in Laramie. Wing James Spencer was the only player to start all 32 games and was third on the team averaging 10.5 points per contest. Ike Okoye was not much of a scoring threat under the basket, but the 6-8 power forward worked hard on the glass. Aaron Henson only saw action in four games before opting to transfer. Daaron Brown and Chris Anderson both missed some games during their senior seasons, but when available, Brown and Anderson were effective big men when they were available. Walk-on Louis Engels will not suit up for the Cowboys after seeing action in just five games last year.
Who’s In:
New coach Heath Schroyer found himself with some scholarships to work with, but not a lot of time. All things considered, this is a decent class that will provide some quality players in the future. However, this year’s team needs some help too and, while the entire class will be given the opportunity to make an impact, it is junior college transfer Tyson Johnson that has the biggest expectations right now. The 6-6 forward from Blinn Community College in Texas averaged 20.9 points and 8.3 rebounds last year. His versatility to play in the paint or step out to the perimeter will add another dynamic to the team, but his toughness inside will keep him on the floor. Adam Waddell, at 6-9 and 220 pounds has the skill set to add depth immediately, especially on the defensive end; however, it is Mikhail Linskens who may be the future of the frontcourt. The seven-footer is an intriguing prospect and has plenty of experience at the international level playing on Belgium’s 20 and Under National Team. His range extends to the three point arc, but it will probably take a little time for the freshman to adjust to playing in the Mountain West Conference. At 6-6, wing Afam Muojeke will bring some size to the perimeter. He is a decent shooter and has enough athleticism to get to the basket. Marios Matalon has some international experience of his own and the 6-3 combo guard from Greece will be asked to contribute off the bench as a freshman.
Who to Watch:
Joseph Taylor was expected to contribute on the defensive end last year after transferring from Los Angeles City College. He did that and much more. While still not a huge offensive threat, Taylor will use his strength to get some buckets in the paint and grab his fair share of rebounds. When healthy, Bienvenu Songondo has the potential to be a productive big man. He can run the floor and is developing into a strong rebounder. Injuries have hampered his collegiate career thus far and it is becoming more difficult to count on the 6-10 junior to remain fit. Ryan Dermody, a big small forward, and Travis Nelson had decent freshmen campaigns, but need to prove they can handle a bigger role.
Final Projection:
There are options up front, but none have the scoring prowess of the departed players. As long as the unit can find a decent scorer inside to stop the defense from keying in on the perimeter group, Wyoming will be a better team than last year. Ewing and Jones are stars, but they cannot do everything themselves.
Projected Post-season Tournament: NIT
Projected Starting Five:
Brad Jones, Senior, Guard, 18.1 points per game
Brandon Ewing, Junior, Guard, 19.9 points per game
Eric Platt, Sophomore, Guard, 6.2 points per game
Joseph Taylor, Senior, Forward, 5.1 points per game
Bienvenu Songondo, Junior, Forward, 1.6 points per game
Do you mean University of Alabama or University of Alabama-Birmingham (UAB)?A third player of the greek U18 team decided to play in the NCAA next season. After Kostas Koufos (Ohio State) and Marios Matalon (Wyoming Cowboys), 17-year old Zisis Sarikopoulos will join the University of Alabama (UAB).
One more reason to follow the NCAA closer next season
Nick Calathes was mentioned above, I think he is a player we can not afford to loose, so maybe Giannakis should do another trip to U.S.A in order to convince him just like he did with Koufos.
There is also Calathes brother Pat, 20 years old, who is a bit underrated imo. He has very good stats but the most important is that he seems to be a Fotsis-style player 210 cm playing both SF and PF with nice passing ability. Must buy for those playing World Basketball Manager
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