if for example albanians do that, under milosevic u saw what was answer, which created all problems now, but international community was all against it, but under current leaders it would be totally different, but i guess israel still thinks force is only answer and it has help of international community, another example of double standards.Originally Posted by cscarlos
everything can be resolved with negotiations!
first, american system is joke (besides fact that they have biggest debt of all countries in the world, but military power keeping them alive), everyone knows that, both sides are totally same (republicans=democrats), and giving me examples how they have some political freedom to choose who will be in power in USA its hilarious.3). American people elect their leaders every four years. In the system of checks and balances, the US president can't do anything, not having the approval of the majority in Congress and Senate. American TV features heated debates of people with different political views, even the most outrageous ones. Funny thing that you deny it, while having access to it.
4). NATO cannot do anything? NATO doesn't deploy ground forces and goes step by step without rushing. Libyans have to get the feeling, they are doing it by themselves. Slowly but surely they progress. There is no problem to bomb Libya into the Stone Age but this is not the goal.
second, rebels simple cant do nothing without nato, u realise that u can easily take over some city if nato clear their way with bombs, u obviously dont know basic military stuff, thats what all from tripoli were talking, nato helped rebels first with bombing of all checkpoints, clearing streets, massive bombing, also helped rebels to come to Tripoli over sea in large numbers.
Last edited by Carick235; 09-14-2011 at 06:47 PM.
This is the age we are currently living in, where war is peace, ignorance is strength and slavery is freedom.
i know truth, u can fool urself how u will prove me something, even u didnt, while Israelis joking here and presenting Palestinians as some muslim savages, while Israelis are only defending, how they all progressing and with "vast economical growth" under Israelis rule, ever heard of word pride, or that they maybe want to live in their own state and not under Israel occupation?
This is the age we are currently living in, where war is peace, ignorance is strength and slavery is freedom.
your words are empty.
they use terror to promote their case.
if they hurt our citizens and in response we will say ''ok,what you want'' we let the terror get is purpose. they not getting anything with terror. you want to talk? talk sitting near a table and make prupursle. if u hurt our citizens u will only hurt yourself.
we are sorry for the life of innocent people who were killed in both sides. we are not sorry for our act cus we wont let this situation countinue. we wont live in fear.
why not put some blame for once on the terrorists who aiming the citizens??
its not their fault? cus if you will answer its not i will not longer talk to you cus i will see you as supporting terrorism.
i want to say another thing.
as you know, Israel is the state of the Jewish people.
one thing about jews is that trough history thousand of time we were killed and hated, so here some points.
1. always in every time across history there weren't so many people who like us.-
so do you think the haters really matter to us?
2.cus of our history of suffering we are the last country you want to fuck with about our securty.
You are boring. Check the facts, at least before going off-topic. Only the simple stuff.
1) When was the modern State of Israel founded? In 1948.
2) When was the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) founded? In 1964.
3) When did the Six-Day-War take place and Israel gain the disputed territoriers, the future Palestinian state could be founded on? In 1967.
4) Who was in Gaza, Judea and Samaria between 1949 and 1967? Egypt and Jordan.
5) Did Israel want to keep the territories or did it offer them back? In 1967 it offered the territories back, while offering a peace treaty. What did it get back? "No negotiations, no recognition, no peace with Israel" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khartoum_Resolution)
6) What did the PLO aim at? Destruction of Israel.
7) What does Hamas have in its charter? Destruction of Israel
8) What was Arafat saying his people in Arabic, well documented on lots of videos? Destruction of Israel.
9) What did the PA do with billions of dollars they are getting in foreign help every year? Bouild infrastructure? No, steal the money, make Palestinians feel comfortable living on welfare sponsored by us.
10) Did Israel make peace proposals to Palestinians? Yes, in 1993, 2000, 2001 as well as recently.
11) Did the Palestinians seem eager to have a peace treaty? Only with maximum demands: no Jews in a Palestinian State, Israel not being a Jewish State, "refugees" should be able to return to Israel, 100% on land, Easern quarters of Jerusalem.
12) What did Israel offer: Israel gives 100% of Gaza (as already done), 97% of Judea and Samaria and 3% of Israeli territories as exchange for security reasons. Israel being recognized as "the Jewish homeland" by Arabs. "Refugees" return to the future Palestinian state, if they want to move anyway. Creative division of Jerusalem without a real division of a united city (as proposed by Ehud Barak in 2000).
And now you come out of your nutshell, check the facts. Yes, Israel is a prospering economy without any natural resources and only the human brain being responsible for it. Israel has virtualy no market in the Middle East and has to spend a lot for its military capacities. Still, one of the top growing economies and one of the better in the world.
Yes, before 1987 as well as in recent years, there is a relative (compared to surrounding Arab states) economic prosperity in the Palestinian territories. Pride? Pride is not an empty word. Earn the right to have pride. Living off welfare is not sth. you can be proud of. Starting and losing wars - dito. Be proud to bring your own people prosperity, make them resistant against Islamic extremism through enlightenment (not age old Antisemitic propaganda), reach a treaty with Israel, both can live with (see Israeli proposals that give Palestinians basically everything except the recipe for self-destruction of Israel). Right now, there is nothing Arabs can be proud of. If not for oil and gas, even the few islands of prosperity woud find themselves in Stone Age. Nothing of significance, of benefit for the people comes out of the Arab world. They are centuries behind the modern world and don't seem eager to change, because religion, myths and the wish to have "pride" are standing in their way. They are living off what has been 1.000 years ago, instead of opening their eyes. They have it all in their hands but they don't start the process. Meanwhile, other than in Black Africa, where warlords virtually eat each other but don't leave their territory, Islamic extremism and terrorism is hurting the whole world. In 2011, it is the only export from the Islamic world. Unfortunately.
burnstein
Israel's expenses on military technology, are actually an investment since they are exporting it for a huge profit, right?Greece is one of their costumers.
As for the civilized VS barbarians thing goga, i hope you will live a long long life to see barbarism return to the western world.
It has already started.
They have god, we have cash.
Oooops sry, not cash, since most of it doesn't actually exist, let's just say Debt then.
Not directly. The expenses are partially covered by export of this technology (and usually not the most advanced one). The defense is a very big part of the Israeli budget.
However probably the hi-tech grown in Israeli a lot due to the need of technologically educated people for the defense. But it's something that hard to measure.
Last edited by ip84; 09-15-2011 at 05:56 PM.
yes we know, palestinians are always wrong and terrorists, while israelis are sweet and always right, in short...
The truth is in the middle, both sides are guilty and thats main thing here.
Im not supporting how this terrorists organisations are trying to fight for their rights, with peaceful measures they would gain much more, but again situation is complex and tradition, history, religion has big impact on them, while on Israel side theres lots of interests, bad politics, because of strong military think they can solve everything with force.
Why Israel created all this settlements but to provoke Palestinians, thats big problem here, over settlements they are expanding their power to more areas, thats occupation and when Israel stop with such politics then u can start talking how u want peace and negotiations.
"In addition Amnesty International argue that in addition to the stated area of West Bank settlements there is a further impact on the Palestinian population as "bypass roads and related infrastructure and discriminatory allocation of other vital resources, including water, have had a devastating impact on the fundamental rights of the local Palestinian population, including their rights to an adequate standard of living, housing, health, education, and work, and freedom of movement within the Occupied Territories."
About walls:
"Since the summer of 2002 the Israeli army has been destroying large areas of Palestinian agricultural land, as well as other properties, to make way for a fence/wall which it is building in the West Bank. In addition to the large areas of particularly fertile Palestinian farmland that have been destroyed, other larger areas have been cut off from the rest of the West Bank by the fence/wall. The fence/wall is not being built between Israel and the Occupied Territories but mostly (close to 90%) inside the West Bank, turning Palestinian towns and villages into isolated enclaves, cutting off communities and families from each other, separating farmers from their land and Palestinians from their places of work, education and health care facilities and other essential services. This in order to facilitate passage between Israel and more than 50 illegal Israeli settlements located in the West Bank."
In some ways i have nothing against fence/wall if its reducing terrorists attacks, but obviosly it was not only built for that, but to take even more land from Palestinians because Israel has right to built it on its own land but not on Palestine as they did, and obviosly with that created even more hatred and problems.
U see , as i said situation is very complex, and u cant blame one side for everything.
This is the age we are currently living in, where war is peace, ignorance is strength and slavery is freedom.
Again, boooring! You really fail to understand the nature of settlements.
burnstein
thats not something even to discuss, its obvious. why do u think they are called settlers then? because they dont belong there, they were brought there to change picture of that area and spread Israel occupation.
This is the age we are currently living in, where war is peace, ignorance is strength and slavery is freedom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imJFnqi5rEs
one thing about Bibi, he sure know how to talk.
maybe ''some'' people should listen to it.
Nice one. Why are refugee camps called refugee camps, if they are regular towns? Just because we think in terms. "Settlers" aren't being brought anywhere. Israel is a democratic state, where no one can you move to a place you don't want to go to. People who want to settle beyond the green border are free to do so in some areas and cannot do it in others. There is not a single law that prohibits Jews to settle in Judea or Samaria as well as Israeli Arabs to live in Israel wherever they want to. So, why should Israel being the house for 1.5 Arabs, while the future Palestinian state - with undefined borders - should be judenrein, as Mahmoud Abbas wants it? Some of the biggest towns beyond the green line won't be dismantled and will be part of territorial exchange. It's ridiculous to dismantle a town of 20.000 with factories that provide jobs for many more people and a university. Nobody is dismantling Arab villages and towns in Israel. But Israel is willing to risk a major rift in its society and forcefully liquidate Jewish presence outside of green line and the previous official border, as it has done in Sinai after 1979 and recently in Gaza. Not that it has earned the love of Egypt (very cold peace) or the respect of the PA by doing so. Hate? Yes. Bombs? Yes.
Besides, if you are talking about occupation, what do you mean by that term? That this land legally belongs to someone and someone other is taking it illegally away? Then you better re-read the UN resolution 242 and read a bit about what this territory has been before 1948, what happened to it in 1949 and the to 1967. These territories are disputed and are supposed to be territory of a future Palestinian state but the extent of it is matter of negotiations, as stated in UN resolution 242, which is the basis for the Oslo agreements and all future Israeli steps in dividing Judea and Samaria into three zones, gradually handing the responsibility over to the Palestinian Authority and finally proposing a plan how to lead the whole thing to Palestinian statehood. The offer was made 11 years ago and responded to by war of terror. Since then and despite all attempts like a very successful help for economic development, the Palestinian Authority has lost its power and actual legitimacy to speak for their people. Getting a state tomorrow with the parliamentary majority not recognizing Israel and vowing to destroy it make all undersigned agreements not worth the paper they are written on. Highly unfortunately. Can the PA take the reponsibility for actions coming from their territory? it can't. Or rather it can but only partially. Should Hamas continue to send rockets over the border from a sovereign Palestinian state, this will be an act of war. A war between two states. Lebanon is already hostage to Hezbollah. The same way is it going to happen to a possible Palestinian state and Hamas as long as the PA is not stronger than Hamas and the latter has enough supporters.
burnstein
ur refugee example is bad, because this settlers go there because israel goverment gave them all they want, good life, apartments, jobs, they put so much money in that because they wanted to accomplish something, of course while they have all that, Palestinians lost everything, especially control over teritory, which is main thing here and if there were no this artificial settlements situation would be much easier to resolve.
and this terrorists will be put aside by people when Palestinians finally get what they deserve, why Israel cant sacrifice that land with 1967 borders, where they created settlements to change picture and solve problem at least with west bank and than start with little more open attitude towards Gaza, even with terrorists u can make agreements if current tactic not working, and if u start helping people and not blocking them they will turn to ur side and not to terrorists, this problem cant be solved in several days, it needs time.
And strange how residents of Tripoli are now asking for this "freedom fighters" to go out of city, because NTC cant control them, how strange... Also citizens of Sirt are running away because of same guys...
This is the age we are currently living in, where war is peace, ignorance is strength and slavery is freedom.
Let me open by saying, that I don't know about the other Israeli users but I personally hate the settlements and think they are bad for every reason,for Israel and peace sake.they make the terrorists be more extreme and hurt the effort to promote peace. This is for me.
I really don't believe that Israel always right.
Now after I say it, I believe you can have a little bit faith in me that I a little bit more objective than what you think.
Now: your ideas are very pretty...they are nice as ideas but they are not,for now,back up as practical.
Yes,their should be a Palestinian state,they have the rights,but this could not happen until Israel will secure here safety. If you will be kind and hear all of Netanyahu speech in the UN (I gave a link in my preview massage) and then tell me about how "easy" is for Israel to just gave up the west bank and take the risk that that it will become Gaza 2.
Sean Penn joins Egypt protest
CAIRO (Reuters) – US actor Sean Penn joined thousands of Egyptian activists who packed downtown Cairo on Friday demanding that military rulers speed up the transfer of power to civilians and end emergency laws once used by Hosni Mubarak against his opponents.
Local media said Penn, holding an Egyptian flag, walked with Egyptian actor Khaled el-Nabawi in Tahrir Square, where Egyptians demonstrated in what they dubbed as “Reclaiming the Revolution” day amid growing discontent over the way military rulers had managed the transitional period.
“The world is inspired by the call for freedom by the courageous revolution of Egypt for its freedom,” Penn said in remarks carried by “Al-Ahram” newspaper’s online page.
“Clearly that is not a completion overnight, there are still struggles forward, there are constitutional issues, there is … a transition of power from the military to the people,” he added.
Nabawi said he had invited the Oscar-winning Penn to visit Egypt as part of efforts to demonstrate that Egypt was a safe place to visit despite the uprising. “We want to show that Egypt is safe,” Nabawi said.
The military council has announced that parliamentary elections will start on Nov. 28 with a mixed system of proportional representation and individual lists.
Follow my blogs and tweets. http://dxjayrocksnotes.blogspot.com/ and https://twitter.com/dxjayrock
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Ha? Are you sure you know what you are writing about? What kind of good life did Israel give to Israeli that are living in Judea and Samaria? Soldiers who protect them? What appartments did Israel give to them? The ones that people have to pay for? What jobs?! Even Kibbutzim participate in open market economy, not mentioning the rest of Israel.
What did the Palestinians lose? Territory, they had never control over until Israel gave them control gradually, starting from 1993? Or how about Jewish land that was conquered by Jordan in 1948/49, was then under Jordanian occupation, came but under Israeli control in 1967 and is now being called "a settlement"? How comes, there are Arab towns and villages in Israel and no one seems to be disturbed by this fact?
Oh, man... so much wishful thinking and not so much healthy sense of reality.and this terrorists will be put aside by people when Palestinians finally get what they deserve, why Israel cant sacrifice that land with 1967 borders, where they created settlements to change picture and solve problem at least with west bank and than start with little more open attitude towards Gaza, even with terrorists u can make agreements if current tactic not working, and if u start helping people and not blocking them they will turn to ur side and not to terrorists, this problem cant be solved in several days, it needs time.
1. What do Palestinians deserve and why do they deserve sth.? I like this word: "deserve". It is strong.
2. Religious fanatics cannot stop being religious. And their understanding of their religion, actually, the normal understanding of Islamic doctrines, will tell you that no land that has somewhen been under control of Muslims can be governed by non-Muslims. Hamas, Islamic Jihad & Co. are not fighting for the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state. They are fighting against the State of Israel with the aim to destroy it. There is a big difference between the two motives.
3. a) The UN SC resolution 242 never obliges Israel to make room for an Arab state on 100% of Judea and Samaria land. So, no international law is backing this demand.
b) Theterritory of Judea and Samaria has never been a territory of a state called Palestine or whatever and it wasn't intended for it to 100% by the UN.
c) Palestinian Arabs along with their Arab brethren rejected to get the land for peace in 1967, right after Israel conquered this land and offered it for a peace agreement.
d) Security demands and reality on the ground - Jews living in Judea (!) and Samaria don't allow a clean partition along the green line.
To sum it up: you cannot reject proposals and try to get what you want by making war, then get your ass kicked and suddenly demand the same thing in negotiations. If you make war, you pay a price. Yet Israel is willing to hand over 97% of land within the Green Line plus 3% in land swap.
4. "A little more open attitude to Gaza"? No Israeli is in Gaza, elections were held in Gaza, people elected Hamas as the main parliamentary power in Gaza and the number of rockets being sent to Israel from Gaza has increased. So, Israel has totally shut its border to Gaza. More open? Everything has been totally open until 1987, when the First Intifada started. No roadblock, no checkpoints, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs working in Israel, the economy on the territories being better then in neighboring Arab countries. Violence has led to unemployment, poverty and further radicalization. Eventhough the economic situation on the territories is stable now (thanks to the donations from all over the Western World and Israel - not their Arab brethren), secular Palestinians like Abbas are living in a mythical world, while religious fanatics of Hamas have the power in Gaza and would have it in Judea and Samaria tomorrow, if it weren't for Israel, who is helping Abbas to survive.
5. "Current tactic": current tactic is like that: our deal is on the table, we will never cease to exist, stop trying to annihilate us. stop your maximum demands that are aiming at not closing an agreement at all and lets face realities. A peace agreement can be signed any day, when both parties will sit at a table and talk about reality and not fantasies. But at the end of the day, will this agreement put a full stop on further demands and hatred? Will a Palestinian Arab be able to enter Israel without fear? As 1.5 mio Arabs are living in Israel freely, I'd say yes. Will an Israeli Jew be able to enter Ramallah or some Palestinian village without second thoughts? I highly doubt it. otherwise, no military presence would be needed now in Judea and Samaria and the family Vogel would be still alive.
Reminds me of German rejectionism. "We were forced to flee, were were expelled from Poland and Czechoslovakia!" But they suddenly forgot, who started it all and who profited from the German troops invading Poland and Czechoslovakia. Citizens of Sirte are running away... The locality that has produced Gaddafi and was among the first-line profiteurs in the last 42 years. Are ou dreaming about a civil war with no blood or what? Even though I hope not a single innocent person there has to die, reality is different. You can't support someone who kills his own people and expect this incident to be forgotten when the power situation changes.And strange how residents of Tripoli are now asking for this "freedom fighters" to go out of city, because NTC cant control them, how strange... Also citizens of Sirt are running away because of same guys...
burnstein
Are you comfortable with having to explain yourself before talking about the topic? Are you comfortable with people rather looking at where you come from than what you write?
Do you really think that the presence of one Jew, 100 or 100.000 makes "terrorists to be more extreme" or do you rather know that the terrorists don't care, whether there are Jews in Judea and Samaria or not because they don't want Israel to exist? Israel has already proved in the past (Sinai, Gaza) that it is willing to sacrifices - not compromises! - and a conflict in its own society for higher goals. How about Arab leaders facing their people, not repeating fairy tales but telling them the truth for a change? At the end, Israel will risk another civil revolt but it will relocate most of its citizens outside of Green Line to Israel. Their presence really isn't the obstacle. But it will have every right not to dismantle towns like Ariel. It would rightfully just annex this land but it will rather propose a land swap there. If Palestinians are interested in a state, they will do it. If they are interested in keeping their jobs as eternal revolutionists living on welfare, they won't. A creative solution is not hard to achieve, as Barak has shown 11 years ago. But Palestinians have to pay a symbolic price for rejecting his proposal then, resulting in thousands of deaths. You can't just try to do sth. by force and if you lose demand exactly the same thing in negotiations. It will be a bad precedent.
burnstein
goga ur one-sided, and its obvious we cant talk about anything, because u will always say opposite.
and cscarlos i know many israelis with same opinion, and many know that settlements are making troubles, i even been in israel last year and saw that people are not feeling so safe (thought everything was ok) and heard lots of opinions, i know its hard, as i said it needs time, both sides are in some way making wrong steps and have the wrong approach to problem. Since we been through lots of shit here in ex-yu area, and saw whole thing, i know how politicians + media (especially those foreign organisations that all giving support, but later when create problem just step aside or choose one side and let them fight betwen eachother) with lies and propaganda can turn people into animals, and make them believe they are fighting for freedom or something, that can kill someone else just because hes of different religion or ethnicity (and before war it was his best friend), and created discord betwen all sides that will probably last now for decades.
I dont need to prove anything to anyone, especially to this goga who will not change opinion no matter what.
I have experience with this kind of propaganda and NATO aggression wars, like its in Libya, and know how it will turn up in the end. Just that depends on how far this so called freedom fighters are ready to go, i mean how low.
This is the age we are currently living in, where war is peace, ignorance is strength and slavery is freedom.
well, what you think should be our answer to the extreme terrorists from hammas who dont believe in israel existence at all? who obay themself to do a jihad and hurt israel no matter what? did you know that when Abass went to the UN to make the pruposle Hammas didnt agree withc him beause they didnt believe in his way of thinking. do you remember the slogen :
''from the river to the sea,palestain will be free''??
do you know what this sentence means? it mean all israel
from the river to the sea is basaclly all israel.
now. lets say that in some way after negotiation israel will gave up the west bank and their will be a palastinen state. and the extremers from hammas will go live in this state. do you know how venerable we will be? look on israel map.
if they countinue from the west bank to shoot misseles and rockets they will hurt all the major citys.
we cant gave this land to a enemy state.
the palestinans should show how they can control their extremers for us to will comfertable to countinue.
yes i feel comfertable with explaining my self.
you know why? because for one to have a conversation with anoter, especially from a different culture on a difficult subject you should be as honest as possible.
and the settelmants are fucking wrong no matter how you look it.
Ariel his wrong. all the main purpuse of the settelments is to make sure that we control the terretory. if we should keep the terretory untill their could be an agreement we should control it with millatry bases and not bulding citis.
now you ask me a question : ''do you really think that the settelmants are the reason for the terrorists''? well ,hamass wont stop any way...but Hamass can be taken down...they dont represnt all the palestinans but i said that we couldnt gave up the land untill israel will be safe. untill Abass will control the terror and stop it .
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