Protests in Arabic World

[Remon]

Maybe he was referring to the days when Libya was under Ottoman rule in the 1500's (even though this lasted till the early 1900's)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Libya

Yup, I think that was his thought. The Gaddafis are so confused and scared right now, I'm wondering he didn't mention the Romans and the Byzantines.

Well unfortunately today aircrafts and tanks were being used to bomb civilians but since there is no valid media coverage to provide us with full details we can't know the exact number of casualties even though some figures mentioned that those who were killed were in the hundreds.....

Aircrafts, tanks and warships are hitting the protesters. Reports are talking about 500 dead, and that's before the heavy weapons were brought. Of course, there's always propaganda from both sides, numbers could be much higher or less.

Gaddafi will probably end up like Ceauşescu, a summary execution, and from their current actions it will be too good for them. Or, there will be a civil war.

I still can't believe parts of the army are hitting their countrymen. At least there were two pilots with enough common sense as to defect to Malta and not bomb their citizens which are supposed to protect.

[b3lowzro]

I still can't believe parts of the army are hitting their countrymen. At least there were two pilots with enough common sense as to defect to Malta and not bomb their citizens which are supposed to protect.

well if im in their place, I wouldn't leave Libya without my family.

Is there a significant Turkish minority in Libya, maybe thats what Gaddafi is talking about.

[Khalid80]

I still can't believe parts of the army are hitting their countrymen. At least there were two pilots with enough common sense as to defect to Malta and not bomb their citizens which are supposed to protect.

Well it's quite simple.... Those pilots who before taking off refused to go bomb their countrymen were shot in the head at point-blank range and this was shown as an example to those who refused to do what they were ordered.

[Khalid80]

Is there a significant Turkish minority in Libya, maybe thats what Gaddafi is talking about.

If you're talking about Turkish people living in Libya most of them are in the construction industry and they are trying to get out of Libya just like the South Koreans (also in Libya for construction).....

[b3lowzro]

If you're talking about Turkish people living in Libya most of them are in the construction industry and they are trying to get out of Libya just like the South Koreans (also in Libya for construction).....

so he's just talking BS, man I'd like that guy to step down.

[goga78]

so he's just talking BS, man I'd like that guy to step down.

"Stepping down" in this case would be either defecting to one of his "anti-imperialistic" friends like Chavez or being shot or hanged by Libyans. They won't forgive him the orders to shoot people from air planes.

Incredible behaviour by the European Union. They needed days in order to speak out their moderate "concern" about the situation in Libya. Europeans still like to shit their pants and can't call things by its name. We have witnessed it in the Balkans, where the whole continent was unable to get things done for eight years. Even now they are "concerned" with the situation instead of giving a 24-hour ultimatum and then sending troops there. After all, it is not an internal altercation. Neither do you have violent protesters just disliking who things go. Libya is a dictatorship with a totally crazy man who is ruling over the country for 42 years now without being elected. He supports terrorism and is guilty of killings of many civilians just for the sake of killing them. It is quite clear, why people are on the streets. I also doubt that the EU does have a clue of who could come after Gaddafi. No wonder. After 42 years of dictatorship, it's very difficult to determine the future political landscape of a country.

[mvblair]

I've been listening a lot to "World Have Your Say" on the BBC, so most of what I know comes from that or from the mainstream news sites I read (again, mostly BBC).

All of these protests in the Arab world seem to be genuine demonstrations of democracy, just like we saw in the late 1980s and early 1990s. This is People Power, a la Philippines. For me, it's amazing. It's wonderful. It's beautiful. These people are standing up for themselves and saying "we want a part of our country."

Some of the conservative talk-show types and politicians in the United States who questioned the protests should be ashamed. These protests are about democracy, America's greatest gift to the modern world (excuse the patriotism and don't question me). How can anybody be against that? Dictatorships are wrong. Period.

These protestors are starting a new era in the Arab-speaking world. I truly believe that. Will there be militant Islamic political parties that arise? Maybe, but probably not. These young people are serious about democracy. They are serious about freedom. They know what the Taliban was like and they want no part of that.

I don't know. I think it's great. I'm really glad to be witnessing this. It truly is an "Arab Spring."

Of course my heart goes out to the people who have died. Of course I feel sorry for their deaths, but those deaths cannot be for nothing. The protestors, I believe, realize the risks and are willing to accept them. They are the ones making way for the Spring.

[Khalid80]

so he's just talking BS, man I'd like that guy to step down.

I was reading some articles on the net and found out that Turkey has approx. 25,000 citizens living in Libya most of them working in the constuction industry as I mentioned before ! (I didn't know that there were that many...)

Turkey has a huge presence in Libya, with about 25,000 citizens in the country and more than 200 Turkish companies involved in construction projects worth more than $15 billion. Some of the construction sites came under attack by protesters but no Turkish citizen has been harmed, authorities said.

Also there are quite a lot of Chinese in Libya and Greece is doing a real great humanitarian effort to help evacuate both the Chinese and Greek citizens from there:

"The situation is very variable and our basic issue is who is in control of what in the country so that our landing and overflight requests are answered," Greek Deputy Foreign Minister Dimitris Dollis said.

Greek officials later said the country was ready to evacuate 15,000 Chinese nationals by transferring them by merchant ships to the Greek island of Crete.

Italy, Serbia, Russia, the Netherlands, Germany and France are also reported to have many citizens in Libya and are trying their best efforts to help them evacuate.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/bp-says-ver...24047-360.html

[Levenspiel]

I was reading some articles on the net and found out that Turkey has approx. 25,000 citizens living in Libya most of them working in the constuction industry as I mentioned before ! (I didn't know that there were that many...)

Yes, but still it doesn't make sense: 25,000 is quite a small number, and apparently they are just workers, not citizens or anything. I don't think they have any political influence or agenda.

Remon could be right, The Gaddafis are probably confused and accusing everybody except themselves now.

[dxjayrock2008]

Gaddafi defiant as state teeters
Libyan leader vows to 'fight on' as his government loses control of key parts in the country and as top officials quit.

Last Modified: 23 Feb 2011 10:16 GMT



Protesters are said to be in control of several cities in Libya's east [Reuters] Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, clings to power in the face of mass protests demanding his resignation, as parts of the country's state structure appear to be disintegrating around him.
Fears are growing that Libya's state apparatus, once seen as a powerful and coherent entity, is facing collapse as key officials quit the government, with some joining the protesters, and as international isolation mounts.
Speaking in a televised address on Tuesday evening, Gaddafi vowed to fight on and die a "martyr" on Libyan soil. He called on his supporters to take back the streets on Wednesday from protesters who are demanding that he step down.
LIVE BLOG He also claimed that he had "not yet ordered the use of force", warning that "when I do, everything will burn".
Gaddafi, who termed the protests an "armed rebellion", said that security cordons set up by police and the military would be lifted on Wednesday, telling his supporters to "go out and fight [anti-government protesters]".
He blamed the uprising in the country on "Islamists", and warned that an "Islamic emirate" has already been set up in Bayda and Derna, where he threatened the use of extreme force.
"I am a fighter, a revolutionary from tents ... I will die as a martyr at the end," Gaddafi, who has been in power for 41 years, said.
Several hundred people held a pro-Gaddafi rally in central Tripoli on Tuesday night, cheering the Libyan leader as he made his speech.
Demonstrators in the eastern city of Benghazi, which is now controlled by anti-government protesters, angrily threw shoes at a screen showing the address.
'Indications of state collapse'
While Gaddafi has insisted that the country is stable, however, international leaders have warned that the growing violence and increasing numbers of government and military renouncements of Gaddafi's leadership indicate that the state structure is in critical danger.
William Hague, the British foreign minister, has said that there are "many indications of the structure of the state collapsing in Libya".
"The resignation of so many ambassadors and diplomats, reports of ministers changing sides within Libya itself, shows the system is in a very serious crisis," he said.
Libyan diplomats across the world have either resigned in protest at the use of violence against citizens, or renounced Gaddafi's leadership, saying that they stand with the protesters.
Late on Tuesday night, General Abdul-Fatah Younis, the country's interior minister, became the latest government official to stand down, saying that he was resigning to support what he termed as the "February 17 revolution".
He urged the Libyan army to join the people and their "legitimate demands".
On Wednesday, Youssef Sawani, a senior aide to Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, one of Muammer Gaddafi's sons, resigned from his post "to express dismay against violence", Reuters reported.
Earlier, Mustapha Abdeljalil, the country's justice minister, had resigned in protest at the "excessive use of violence" against protesters, and diplomat's at Libya's mission to the United Nations called on the Libyan army to help remove "the tyrant Muammar Gaddafi".
A group of army officers has also issued a statement urging soldiers to "join the people" and remove Gaddafi from power.
Protesters 'take' towns
Swathes of the country now appear to be out of Gaddafi's control. Benghazi, the country's second largest city, was "taken" by protesters after days of bloody clashes, and soldiers posted there are reported to have deserted and joined the anti-government forces.

The Libyan government has accused Qatar, Al Jazeera's host country, of spreading "lies" and fomenting unrest

On Wednesday morning, Kharey, a local resident, told Al Jazeera that "normal traffic" was flowing on Benghazi's streets, but that demonstrations may take place later in the day near court buildings.
He said that people in Benghazi were forming committees to manage the affairs of the city, and that similar committees were being set up in the towns of Beyda and Derna.
Several other cities in the country's east are said to be under the control of protesters, including Tobruk, where a former army major told the Reuters news agency: "All the eastern regions are out of Gaddafi's control ... the people and the army are hand-in-hand here."
The Paris-based International Federation for Human Rights says that protesters also control Sirte, Misrata, Khoms, Tarhounah, Zenten, Al-Zawiya and Zouara.
The Warfalla tribe, the largest in the country, has also joined calls from other tribes for Gaddafi to stand down.
The Network of Free Ulema (Libya), a group of clerics, released a statement on Wednesday expressing their "full support" for what they refer to as the "new Libyan government" in the eastern part of the country.
Global isolation
The country is also facing growing international isolation, and late on Tuesday, the United Nations Security Council expressed "grave concern" at the situation in the country, condemning the use of force against civilians.
A statement signed by all 15 members of the council said that the UNSC "deplored the repression against peaceful demonstrators, and expressed deep regret at the deaths of hundreds of civilians".
The council called for "steps to address the legitimate demands of the population".
The United Nations Human Rights Council is to hold a special session on February 25 to discuss the crisis in Libya, following a request from the European Union, an official for the council said on Wednesday.
Earlier, following Gaddafi's speech, the Arab League barred Libya from attending meetings of the bloc until it stops cracking down on anti-government protesters. The league strongly condemned what it called crimes against civilians, the recruiting of foreign mercenaries and the use of live ammunition, according to a statement read by Amr Moussa, the body's secretary-general.
On Wednesday, the African Union also conducted a "security meeting" on the situation in Libya.
Peru, meanwhile, has severed diplomatic ties with Gaddafi's government, while several countries, including Britain, the United States, Italy, France, Turkey, India, Sri lanka, Nepal, Bangladesh and Greece have put into place arrangements for the evacuation of their citizens from the country.
On Wednesday, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, called for "swift and concrete sanctions" to be imposed and for economic and financial relations with Libya to be cut.
Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, said on Tuesday that the use of violence was "completely unacceptable", while Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, said it "amounted to [Gaddafi] declaring war on his own people".
Violence rages
The UNSC's statement stopped short of declaring Libyan airspace a no-fly zone, after diplomats called for the step to be taken following reports that warplanes had been used throughout Monday to bomb civilian targets in Tripoli.
Violence has continued to rage in Libya since an anti-government crackdown on demonstrations began on February 17. Human Rights Watch, a US-based rights watchdog, says that at least 295 people have been killed since violence began.
Naji Abu-Ghrouss, an interior ministry official, said 197 civilians and 111 in the military have been killed in violence so far.
On Wednesday, however, Franco Frattini, the Italian foreign minister, said estimates of 1,000 dead were "credible". Frattini also said that the eastern province of Cyrenaica was no longer under Gaddafi's control.
Witnesses in Tripoli and other cities have reported that foreign mercenaries have been patrolling the streets, firing indiscriminately on those they encounter in a bid to keep people off the streets. In addition, air strikes have also been reported against civilian targets.
The government claims that while warplanes have been used in recent days, they were targeting arms depots and that the targets were not in residential areas.
On Tuesday, Navi Pillay, the UN's high commissioner for human rights, said that widespread and systematic attacks against civilians "may amount to crimes against humanity".
On Wednesday, French energy giant Total said that it was suspending part of its operations in Libya. The announcement came after Italy's Eni and Spain's Repsol-YPF shut down operations in the country, and Royal Dutch Shell evacuated all personnel.
Oil prices have been pushed to two-and-a-half year highs, on the back of fears that instability in Libya will affect world supplies of the commodity.

Source:
Al Jazeera and agencies

[ip84]

Little bit off topic, but I wonder how for example Chinese feel about their dictator.

[Khalid80]

Little bit off topic, but I wonder how for example Chinese feel about their dictator.

Off course this would be better answered by the Chinese members here in Interbasket but what I do know is that in China the government is currently in a high state of alert.....
Online censorship blockages have increased and the Chinese media is trying their best so no information referring to what is happening in the Middle East can reach the Chinese citizens.

Also a few days ago there was a group of Chinese who were in Beijing and tried to "place white jasmine flowers on a planter while hundreds of people milled about the protest gathering spot, outside a McDonald's on the capital's busiest shopping stree".... This is in reference to the Jasmine Revolution that occurred in Tunisia (Africa)

Here are the links:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110220/...ine_revolution
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...052860,00.html

In other news the number of those killed in the clashes in Libya has surpassed 1,000

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110223/...a_protests_115

[b3lowzro]

Man, Gaddafi's really insane check this out, time step down i guess

Now Gaddafi blames hallucinogenic pills mixed with Nescafe and bin Laden for uprisings... before ordering bloody hit on a mosque

Colonel Gaddafi was preparing last night for a blood-soaked final stand in Tripoli.
Thousands of hired fighters were massing on roads from the capital to join army units battling the uprising which had spread to within 30 miles of the dictator’s stronghold.
Fighting raged as Gaddafi made an extraordinary rambling speech on TV in which he compared himself to the Queen and blamed the revolt on Osama Bin Laden.
He claimed the protesters who have seized control of much of the east of the country he has ruled for 41 years were fuelled by milk and Nescafe spiked with hallucinogenic drugs.
In a bizarre message to protesters, he said: ‘You need to listen to your parents. If people disobey their parents they end up destroying the country.
‘The same as in Britain (where) for 57 years the Queen has been ruling. I have been in the same situation.’
He went on: ‘Bin Laden ... this is the enemy who is manipulating the people. Do not be swayed by Bin Laden.’
Yesterday an unsubstantiated rumour that Gaddafi had been shot swept the oil markets.
CNBC reported the rumour this afternoon, claiming it was partially responsible for driving oil prices back down to $97 a barrel.
Oil had hit a high of $120 a barrel late yesterday afternoon, but settled at $97 on the rumour and on Saudi Arabia's claim that it can counter any supply disruptions from Libya.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1Ey5HYXz3

[FilWelsh]

I do believe Western type democracy is not applicable to Middle East and Arab world. what that region needs are strong leaders, "dictators" as the West called them. Do you think when Gaddafi leaves the new leadership in Libya will adopt this elusive democracy? I don't think so, a dictator gone but another one on his way. that's the cycle in Middle East politics. Arab and Islamic culture suits this kind of leadership regime. Without a strong leader a particular will not attained stability, look at Lebanon their political state is very fragile because they have a weak leadership amidst an imperfect democracy and fragmented religious lines. . .

[ip84]

This link jumps directly to 1:32 when the relevant part begins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv92_IsXEUc#t=1m32s

Regarding the discussion at the previous pages in this topic.
(Elaj and Alyosha, it's especially for you and maybe mvblair as well)
By Latma.

[SunOverHStreet]

This link jumps directly to 1:32 when the relevant part begins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv92_IsXEUc#t=1m32s

Regarding the discussion at the previous pages in this topic.
(Elaj and Alyosha, it's especially for you and maybe mvblair as well)
By Latma.

And this is not supposed to be propaganda? C'mon... You're young, but don't be that naive.
Majority of the Arab protesters have no basic rights and they live on verge of existence, and that's the real motivator of the turmoil that spread across the north Africa. Israel is the last thing on their mind right now...

[goga78]

I do believe Western type democracy is not applicable to Middle East and Arab world. what that region needs are strong leaders, "dictators" as the West called them. Do you think when Gaddafi leaves the new leadership in Libya will adopt this elusive democracy? I don't think so, a dictator gone but another one on his way. that's the cycle in Middle East politics. Arab and Islamic culture suits this kind of leadership regime. Without a strong leader a particular will not attained stability, look at Lebanon their political state is very fragile because they have a weak leadership amidst an imperfect democracy and fragmented religious lines. . .

A tough question. You've had this kind of scenario down there for the last... well, forever. Not that it was of any help. Still, there is a difference between Mubarak and Hussein or Gaddafi. But as long as rulers like Mubarak misuse their foreign politics in order to retain the unbearable status quo at home, it will give you just years or a couple of decades of breathing room before all the problems come to surface in an even bloodier fashion.

It is unknown what will happen next and whether the revolts now will pan out for the better. What should I say? If you don't try it, you don't know it. After all, there was a time, when our continent was not in an different position regarding poverty, civil rights and absolute monarchy. The difference is that this situation was like 300-400 years ago but the World has developed since than. In the Arab world, the time is standing still. Use of modern weaponry is welcome (as well as Internet, cell phones etc.) but use of modern way of life, civil freedoms, human rights etc. is non-existent.

I believe that non-religious powers will come to rule their states now but I fear that the people will elect religious parties the next time as the previous governent won't be able to change anything significantly within one term.

[goga78]

And this is not supposed to be propaganda? C'mon... You're young, but don't be that naive.
Majority of the Arab protesters have no basic rights and they live on verge of existence, and that's the real motivator of the turmoil that spread across the north Africa. Israel is the last thing on their mind right now...

Last but not least. Any demonstration features people chanting Anti-Israeli slogans. Poverty was of concern for the last decades, yet people still went out to chant "Death to Israel" and not "We want bread". That's not propaganda (in the negative sense), that#s the sad reality. Even though people have so many virulent domestic problems, they still find time for hate, instead of regional cooperation and learning from those who do it better.

[ip84]

And this is not supposed to be propaganda? C'mon... You're young, but don't be that naive.
Majority of the Arab protesters have no basic rights and they live on verge of existence, and that's the real motivator of the turmoil that spread across the north Africa. Israel is the last thing on their mind right now...

Propaganda by who?
Latma are a political-stair group on the internet (have a web-site and an youtube channel) who was unknown until the "we con the world" even in Israel.

Who said that they are not right and that they don't have other motivations?

But if Israel doesn't interest anybody then why did they talk about Israel at youtube video that Elaj put here from Al Jazeera as well, and why the protesters did it in CNN.
If you would see the video posted at the first page in this topic you should understand what Latma (and I) mean...

[mvblair]

Well, that video cannot really be taken seriously for obvious reasons.

I think Goga is right in the situation regarding democracy: "If you don't try it, you don't know it."

Most Arabs are not extremist militants. In countries where the militants exist, the question is whether or not citizens can keep their desired form of democracy thriving while preventing militants from gaining power.