Is the "German Bomber" - Dirk Nowitzki belong in the Top 10 of All Time?

[Saskibaloia]

Mavericks coach Rick Carlisle, clearly a bit biased considering his relationship with Nowitzki, makes the argument that Dirk belongs on the Top 10 (of all-time) list. More from ESPNDallas.com:

“In my opinion, he’s a top 10 player in NBA history because of the uniqueness of his game and how he’s carried this franchise on his back for over a decade,” Carlisle told “ESPN First Take” on Monday. “He’s just right. He’s leading the team. His shot-making is great. He’s passing the ball great. He’s one of the guys that’s directing traffic for us defensively.”

Sure, Nowitzki has been the league MVP (2006-07), and he’s been the one constant on the floor during the Mavericks’ run of 11 consecutive 50-win seasons. Only the Bill Russell-led Boston Celtics (1959-1968), the Magic Johnson-led Lakers (1980-91) and the Tim Duncan-led San Antonio Spurs (2000-present) have had comparable runs.

Those teams, however, won championships. Dirk has yet to win an NBA title, making his only Finals appearance in 2006 when the Mavericks lost to the Miami Heat in six games.

“He’s got one thing missing from the mantle and that drives him,” Mavs president of basketball operations Donnie Nelson told ESPN 103.3 FM on Monday morning. “We’ve maybe been spoiled by how good he is.”

Where does Dirk rank on your all time list?

[CKR13]

A Championship will boost Nowitzki's Top Ten Greatest of All Time bid. But seeing Nowitzki with an MVP Award, Dirk is on my Top 20.

[mvblair]

Top 20 right now. He's good. He's definitely good. One of the 3 or 4 best big forwards, definitely.

[eliooo93]

It's really tough to say.. He's definitely among the top 20 and is currently the toughest guy to guard in the NBA.

[Triggerman]

If we're talking about All time greatest players he's far behind., But All Time greatest Forward i'd say he's in top 15.

1. Bob Pettit
2. Larry Bird
3. Elgin Baylor
4. Karl Malone
5. Julius Erving
6. Tim Duncan
7. Charles Barkley
8. George Gervin
9. Rick Barry
10. Scottie Pippen
11.Kevin Mchale
12. James Worthy
13. Elvin Hayes
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Dirk Nowitzki

[Mojado]

@Saskibalonia:To call him "German Bomber" is offensive...you know that the term "bomber" was used a lot in WWII and is related to that since then? Not nice to call him that way.

[Alkaline Krogan]

Top 20, sure. Top 15, not sure. Top 10, no.

[Khalid80]

Right now he's around top 30

Behind names like: MJ, Bill Russell, Kareem, Magic Johnson, Bird, Chamberlain, Duncan, Kobe, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Olajuwon, Shaq, Moses Malone, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving, Bob Petit, Barkley, Karl Malone, Lebron, Bob Cousy, Kevin Garnett, Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, Rick Barry, Bill Walton, D-Wade, David Robinson, Kevin McHale...

But if he wins an NBA Championship he'll be top 20 and maybe by the time he retires top 15 depending on the feats he accomplishes...

[NorCal]

Right now he's around top 30

Behind names like: MJ, Bill Russell, Kareem, Magic Johnson, Bird, Chamberlain, Duncan, Kobe, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Olajuwon, Shaq, Moses Malone, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving, Bob Petit, Barkley, Karl Malone, Lebron, Bob Cousy, Kevin Garnett, Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, Rick Barry, Bill Walton, D-Wade, David Robinson, Kevin McHale...

But if he wins an NBA Championship he'll be top 20 and maybe by the time he retires top 15 depending on the feats he accomplishes...

I have to agree with Khalid here. Dirk is a wonderful player but he can't be ranked any higher than top 30 right now. It is difficult to make a case for him replacing any of the guys in the list Khalid made above.
I love Dirk though, so we'll see where he may end up by the time his career is over. If they make it out of the Western Conference I'll be rooting for Dallas

[SunOverHStreet]

Right now he's around top 30

Behind names like: MJ, Bill Russell, Kareem, Magic Johnson, Bird, Chamberlain, Duncan, Kobe, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Olajuwon, Shaq, Moses Malone, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Julius Erving, Bob Petit, Barkley, Karl Malone, Lebron, Bob Cousy, Kevin Garnett, Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, Rick Barry, Bill Walton, D-Wade, David Robinson, Kevin McHale...

But if he wins an NBA Championship he'll be top 20 and maybe by the time he retires top 15 depending on the feats he accomplishes...

I'm not sure how your logic is applicable here... Some guys from your list never won NBA ring also, but are considered one of the greatest players ever played in NBA. I think that we can say the same about Dirk. He also did wonders with very limited and mediocre German NT (hard working, though)... I think it's tougher to win any medal with Germany, than gold with USA dream team, like Stockton, Barkley or Malone did... (I'm not saying he's better than them, but surely there with them)

[durden_tyler]

With whatever list, the knock on him will (always be) his lack of defense. He's a superb superb offensive player but without talent on the other side he'll just be seen as another great offensive player. (IF he had defense he'd be named Larry Bird, and will be a shoo-in Top 10)

[Khalid80]

I'm not sure how your logic is applicable here... Some guys from your list never won NBA ring also, but are considered one of the greatest players ever played in NBA. I think that we can say the same about Dirk. He also did wonders with very limited and mediocre German NT (hard working, though)... I think it's tougher to win any medal with Germany, than gold with USA dream team, like Stockton, Barkley or Malone did... (I'm not saying he's better than them, but surely there with them)

Don't get me wrong, Dirk is one of my favorite players and i'm a huge fan of his.

But regarding the 3 names you mentioned Stockton, Barkley and Malone here's why imo they're still ranked a bit higher than Nowitzki:

1) Stats Records:
Malone: 2nd all time leader in points scored, 1st in FT
Stockton: All time leader in assists
Barkley: 2nd player in NBA history to have more than 23,000 points ; 12,000 rebounds and 4,000 Assists (after only Wilt Chamberlain)

Dirk is a prolific scorer (already has +22,000 points) and maybe by the time he retires he could end up in the top 10 list in points scored but he also has to grab more rebounds to end up with +10,000.

2) Playoffs:
Malone and Stockton managed to reach the NBA finals twice (97+98) and lost in both cases to one of the, if not the, best player in NBA history MJ.
Barkley also lost to MJ in NBA finals in 93 when he was playing for the Suns...

I'm mentioning this cause if these guys weren't facing MJ and the Bulls they would have won an NBA championship during those years (My biased personal opinion ).

Also Dirk after managing to take the Mavs to the NBA finals in 05-06 his team has suffered bad in the playoffs in the following seasons:

1) 06-07 season losing in the first round to the Warriors after Mavs had the best record in the league
2) 07-08 season losing in the first round to the Hornets
3) 08-09 season losing in the Western conference semis to the Nuggets
4) 09-10 season losing in the first round to the Spurs

This year can change alot of this though because if Dirk wins an NBA Championship then automatically he becomes one of the names in the list I have mentioned above

Of course also all 3 players have won 2 Gold medals in 92 and 96 but you already mentioned about that and this thread is talking about NBA careers, not International careers.

[Ciscorlie Horford]

I would rank Dirk below these players:

1-Wilt Chamberlain
2-Bill Russell
3-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4-Oscar Robertson
5-Charles Barkley
6-John Stockton
7-Wes Unseld
8-Walt Bellamy
9-Jerry Lucas
10-Magic Johnson
11-Karl Malone
12-Michael Jordan
13-Kevin Garnett
14-Jason Kidd
15-Moses Malone
16-Nate Thurmond
17-Bob Pettit
18-Lary Bird
19-Hakeem Olajuwon
20-Shaquille O'Neal
21-David Robinson
22-Dennis Rodman
23-Elgin Baylor
24-Tim Duncan
25-Elvin Hayes
26-Jerry West
27-Clyde Drexler
28-Robert Parish
29-Paul Silas
30-Scottie Pippen
31-Buck Williams
32-Dave Cowens
33-Walt Frazier
34-Dolph Schayes
35-Patrick Ewing
36-Gary Payton
37-Kobe Bryant
38-LeBron James
39-Larry Nance
40-Chris Paul
41-Dwight Howard
42-Dwaye Wade
(these players are in no particular order)

and Above these players: (again in no particular order)

43-Artis Gilmore
44-Steve Nash
45-Paul Pierce
46-Grant Hill
47-Julius Erving
48-George Mikan
49- Manu Ginobili
50-Pau Gasol
51-Horanc e Grant
52-Ron Harper
53-Bill Laimbeer
54-Isaah Thomas
55-Maurice Cheek
56-Robert parish
57-Dale davis
58-Mark jaclason
59-Dikenbe Mutombo
60-Alonzo Mourning
61-Mitch Richmond
62- Pistol Pete
63-Reggie Miller
64-Allen Iverson
65-Jason Kidd


so that would make Dirk a top 45 of all time but no more than that, maybe you could make a case for Dirk being a top 35 but anything beyond that would be very hard to argue (even though it is doable)

With whatever list, the knock on him will (always be) his lack of defense. He's a superb superb offensive player but without talent on the other side he'll just be seen as another great offensive player. (IF he had defense he'd be named Larry Bird, and will be a shoo-in Top 10)

exactely, Too much offense too little defense, the same reason Amare and Iverson will never be on top top 10 of anyhting.

I'm not sure how your logic is applicable here... Some guys from your list never won NBA ring also, but are considered one of the greatest players ever played in NBA. I think that we can say the same about Dirk. He also did wonders with very limited and mediocre German NT (hard working, though)... I think it's tougher to win any medal with Germany, than gold with USA dream team, like Stockton, Barkley or Malone did... (I'm not saying he's better than them, but surely there with them)

but we are talking about the greatest NBA players of all time here NOT the best international players so what Dirk has done with the German national team has nothing to do with this, if that were the case then brobably Oscar Smitch and Manu Ginobili would be 1 and 2 respectively. besides, Dirk hasn't played that much with his national team, especially after he finally got his super star reputation he basically ditched his national team, and hasn't played all that much.

[SunOverHStreet]

Don't get me wrong, Dirk is one of my favorite players and i'm a huge fan of his.
But regarding the 3 names you mentioned Stockton, Barkley and Malone here's why imo they're still ranked a bit higher than Nowitzki...

First of all, it's hard to say who's best (MJ, of course!) or who's better than who, basically every list that's made (or will be) is highly subjective, influenced by various beliefs. I just defied your logic, it's not necessary to be great and to have a ring, hope you understand that.
Your later post is solid as rock and I can only agree with you, my observation that he's there with the greatest is, of course, my subjective opinion... But, Dirk still have a few seasons ahead of him, ATM being an all time franchise leader in many fields, an incredibly unique player, he still have a chance to make his career and stats undoubtful to NBA's history. And I don't even wanna think what will happen if his career lasts like those of Malone or Stockton... Maybe he even wins a ring, or two...

Of course also all 3 players have won 2 Gold medals in 92 and 96 but you already mentioned about that and this thread is talking about NBA careers, not International careers.

My fault, I went beyond boundaries of NBA... It's not of any importance concerning the matter we discussed here.

but we are talking about the greatest NBA players of asll time here NOT the best international players, if that were the case then brobably Oscar Smitch and Manu Ginobili would be 1 and 2 respectively. besides, Dirk hasn't played that much with his national team, pecially asfter he finally got his super star deputation he basically ditch his national team.

Bold1:Thanx for the info!
Bold2: That's, simply, not true... BTW, he was always a super star sheriff, never a deputy.

[Khalid80]

First of all, it's hard to say who's best (MJ, of course!) or who's better than who, basically every list that's made (or will be) is highly subjective, influenced by various beliefs. I just defied your logic, it's not necessary to be great and to have a ring, hope you understand that.
Your later post is solid as rock and I can only agree with you, my observation that he's there with the greatest is, of course, my subjective opinion... But, Dirk still have a few seasons ahead of him, ATM being an all time franchise leader in many fields, an incredibly unique player, he still have a chance to make his career and stats undoubtful to NBA's history. And I don't even wanna think what will happen if his career lasts like those of Malone or Stockton... Maybe he even wins a ring, or two...

I also agree that you could be a great player without having a ring.

It's only a matter of ranking that we're not fully agreeing on (whether Dirk is currently a top 10, top 20, top 30....)

For me i'm discussing about Dirk as of today (as in if today was his last day playing)...Again if he wins the NBA championship this season he automatically becomes a top 20 for me.

If the title of the thread was "where will Dirk rank amongst NBA's greatest once he retires" my answer would completely be different because I have faith that he still can win a championship and even if he doesn't he will have accomplished more for Dallas than any other player for that franchise as you also mentioned (By the way i'm cheering for Dallas in the playoffs )...

My fault, I went beyond boundaries of NBA... It's not of any importance concerning the matter we discussed here.

No problem bro

[NorCal]

Here's an article from ESPN speaking to Dirk's toughness and reliability in clutch situations.

For me, he is one of the most underrated 'clutch' players in the last 20 years. He puts up big numbers in the playoffs year after year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba...tim&id=6529792

[Khalid80]

I might have to reconsider the ranking I gave to Dirk Nowitzki after such a spectacular performance last night

[SunOverHStreet]

I also agree that you could be a great player without having a ring.

It's only a matter of ranking that we're not fully agreeing on (whether Dirk is currently a top 10, top 20, top 30....)

Well, if you look back at my posts, you'll see that I never mentioned top10 or top20, 'cause it doesn't matter actually... As I said, every top(xyz) list could be disputed. Now, what matters the most is that we fully agree on his basketball greatness.

For me i'm discussing about Dirk as of today (as in if today was his last day playing)...Again if he wins the NBA championship this season he automatically becomes a top 20 for me.

If it makes you happy...

By the way I'm cheering for Dallas in the playoffs ...

Me, too... Fate was unrighteous to some of the current Dallas players.
I mean, is there any person who could not want for guys like Kidd, Nowitzki, Stojaković, Marion to finally get a ring. Of course, I'm not minimizing Dallas franchise, they deserved it, too.

[sinobball]

I would rank Dirk below these players:

1-Wilt Chamberlain
2-Bill Russell
3-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4-Oscar Robertson
5-Charles Barkley
6-John Stockton
7-Wes Unseld
8-Walt Bellamy
9-Jerry Lucas
10-Magic Johnson
11-Karl Malone
12-Michael Jordan

Are you saying you'd rank 11 players above MJ? Who is Walt Bellamy anyway, never heard of him.

But I agree that there's no way to rank Dirk in the top 10. Even if you compile the names of superstars who won multiple rings the list would exceed 10. And then there are also guys like the Mailman or Sir Charles that have to be up there. He's probably around 20.

Since I'm a geek
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/
try one of the parameters on the bottom, like "Win Shares-career". He is #19 for regular season and #16 for playoffs. About where I'd rank him.

[Khalid80]

Well, if you look back at my posts, you'll see that I never mentioned top10 or top20, 'cause it doesn't matter actually... As I said, every top(xyz) list could be disputed. Now, what matters the most is that we fully agree on his basketball greatness.

Me, too... Fate was unrighteous to some of the current Dallas players.
I mean, is there any person who could not want for guys like Kidd, Nowitzki, Stojaković, Marion to finally get a ring. Of course, I'm not minimizing Dallas franchise, they deserved it, too.

By the way this article is very interesting as it talks about how Cuban has overshadowed Nowitzki as the star of the team