I can't believe that Zouros picked Bramos over Sloukas. I am sorry, but Bramos has shown absolutely nothing to be on the team. I think the federation had to promise him a place at the Olympics to get him to play with the team. Because he did nothing to earn a place on the roster.
Player Dispersal Bad for Greek NT?
The lower budgets of Olympiakos and Panathinaikos next year are preventing them from matching offers from wealthier basketball markets - primarily Russia and Turkey at the moment. Kaimakoglou, Calathes, Printezis, Vouyoukas might join Bourousis, Fotsis, Zisis, Vasiliadis, Schortsanitis, Koufos by playing outside of Greece. Meanwhile, perhaps the weakest member of the Greek NT, Bramos, is joining a Greek team...Currently, only the Olympiakos 4 - Mantzaris, Sloukas, Papanikolaou, Spanoulis - look to remain in Greece. Panathinaikos is in full dissolution mode, exacerbated by Obradovic's departure.
My question to you is whether you think this will create a problem for the Greek NT in the future. Greek NTs in the past have beaten more talented teams through their team play, strong camaraderie, etc. Now, with the players of the NT dispersed throughout the outer reaches of the Eurasian continent, will this be possible?
Yes..Originally Posted by christodoulou76
Olympiacos does not have a lower budget. It's the same as last year. Panathinaikos has a 4 million lower budget, but compared to the other Euroleague teams, it's still a really big budget. Do you ever hear that Real Madrid or Fenerbahce can't sign players due to their small budget? Well, Panathinaikos' current budget is the same as theirs. People say they have a huge budget, but PAO has a small one? Yet, they have the same budgets.The lower budgets of Olympiakos and Panathinaikos next year are preventing them from matching offers from wealthier basketball markets - primarily Russia and Turkey at the moment. Kaimakoglou, Calathes, Printezis, Vouyoukas might join Bourousis, Fotsis, Zisis, Vasiliadis, Schortsanitis, Koufos by playing outside of Greece. Meanwhile, perhaps the weakest member of the Greek NT, Bramos, is joining a Greek team...
My question to you is whether you think this will create a problem for the Greek NT in the future. Greek NTs in the past have beaten more talented teams through their team play, strong camaraderie, etc. Now, with the players of the NT dispersed throughout the outer reaches of the Eurasian continent, will this be possible?
Panathinaikos is choosing not to sign these players. For various reasons. It's not that they can't sign them. People have taken the budget cuts to the point of extreme exaggeration.
For example, Olympiacos actually has a lot more money to spend this summer, than they did last summer, because the overall budget is the same, yet the cost of the coaches will drastically reduce.
The fact simply is that guys like Calathes never had the quality to be on team's like PAO in the first place. He was really over hyped and overrated by the Greek press and federation, due to that he was an NBA draft pick. Then Obradovic never wanted to admit his mistake, so he kept playing him, even when he rarely performed. In all truth, Calathes being in a Russian Eurocup team was very predictable. He never had the level for clubs like PAO. Maybe in the future he will, but not now.
As for Bramos, he just seems to be Zouros' favorite or something. I don't think he realistically deserves to be on the national team. The coach just likes him for whatever reason.
Tomorrow the game between Greece and Jordan in 21:00 o ΄clock(Greece time) and 13:30(Venezuela time).
Does anybody know if ERT(Greek TV)will show all the games of OQT or only the NT games?
So finally after Vougioukas, Sloukas is the next victim . If Giannakis would have been in charge of the NT, we would have for sure a third center and of course he would have not prefered a new player over a player which already played one tournament.
Hellas Youtube Full-Game Video Collection
Panagiotis Giannakis: "η άμυνα είναι λεφτά στην τράπεζα και η επίθεση λεφτά στο χρηματιστήριο"
If Giannakis was the coach, Vasileiadis and Sloukas would have never made the team.
High budget clubteams is not necessary the best thing for the Greek NTs development. What matters is that Greek players play in top teams and are not benched.
As for the budgets of Panathinaikos and Olympiakso being lower. I don't think that's a bad thing either. If anything, it gives young domestic talents the oppurtunity to get some playing time in big EL teams. Look at the development of Printezis, Sloukas, Katsivelis, Papanikolaou, Mantzaris. Do you think that they would be in the same situation had Olympiakos kept a high budget? Most of them would have gotten some garbadge time at most.
Greece's priority is to prepare and develop the next generation. Olympiakos and Panathinaikos have won 8 EL titles in 16 years. It's no shame if a team like PAO has a downturn during the next two or three years. Besides, Olympiakos is still a F4 team.
PAO EUROPEAN CHAMPION 1996 - 2000 - 2002 - 2007 - 2009 - 2011
And Panathinaikos still has a bigger budget than Olympiacos, and the same as Fener and Real. It's not like they can't still be a final four team with such a budget. They just need to make good roster moves.
I don't know. Will FIBA have them online for free, or do we have to pay?
Last edited by Olympiacos; 07-01-2012 at 06:50 PM.
The high budgets of a few years ago prevented some talented Greek players from playing on the top Greek teams, but now the budgets are preventing these teams from retaining these Greek players on their rosters. We are becoming like Serbia, Slovenia and Croatia, which sees its best players play abroad once they reach a certain level because the local teams do not have enough money to pay them. It is important to remember that Panathinaikos wants to keep Kaimakoglou, Vouyoukas and Calathes but will not because these players will get better offers elsewhere. The same goes for Olympiakos with Printezis. I just find it a little sad that these players have to go to some remote location like Kazan or Krasnodar to make their living...
They live in Greece, a beautiful place, and they play the game they are supposed to love.
And for that, they are getting paid very well, 5-20 times more than an average person, who is more than likely doing a job he doesn’t truly love.
Moving to Spain or Italy for more money is something I can relate with, but anything to the north, I don’t get it. Why live for 5-10 years away from Greece, if you only get richer instead of rich in return?
But again, this isn't actually true. The budget are high enough to retain these players, IF they want to, and IF the players want to stay there.
Players are leaving either because they don't want them anymore, or because the players want to leave, or because they are asking to be absurdly overpaid. It's not because they can't afford them.
There is more than enough budget in both clubs allotted to sign these players. Anyone that says there isn't, is wrong. Think about Calathes, asking for 1 million a year, when his performance should put him at about 300,000 per year. If you had a 30 million budget, you should not sign him at that salary.
Any properly run club will tell him, fine then go to play in a Russian Eurocup club. The same as Mavrokefalidis last year. It's not about not being able to sign the players - it's about the Greek clubs finally growing a brain and finally starting to manage the clubs properly.
Again.........Panathinaikos this year has the same budget as Fenerbache and Real Madrid. Everyone on this forum says they have "huge budgets" and can "buy any player they want". But the same people describe PAO as "having a small budget and being in a financial crises". The clubs have the same budgets.
You know what the difference is? The difference is that those clubs never would have been signing mediocre players like Sato to insane contracts in the first place. All the Greek clubs have done is finally figured out that they were overpaying players.
Do the math yourself if you won't believe me. Add up all the contracts of the players and you will see it. There is plenty of money to have re-signed those players. If they leave it isn't because they could not afford to sign them.
If anything, this will be good for the national team, because now the true level of the players will be revealed and things like playing for PAO deciding how good you are, and your place in the national team, will end. The Greek media and PAO fans have been (many of them) saying Calathes was better than Spanoulis, Papaloukas, Diamantidis, and so forth. Almost across the board saying he was better than Zisis.
I consider this a good development for Greek basketball actually. Because now people will finally start to grasp that Calathes can either take a smaller, normal paycheck, or he can go play in a Russian Eurocup club. Because he isn't Spanoulis, Diamantidis, Papaloukas (in earlier times) and yes, he isn't even Zisis. Big European clubs don't want him.
So maybe now some of the delusions about how the national team is picked, and how the pecking order in it is built, will start to change.
So this is just a huge nonsense about the budgets of the clubs. Just like with Sofo, Olympiacos chose not to sign him. They could afford it, but they decided he was overpaid, since he could only play 15 minutes a game. So they let him go. Was it bad for him that he played in Maccabi and was first team of Euroleague in the season where he was not injured? Was it bad for Olympiacos that since then they won the Euroleague and Greek League?
I am sorry, but if anything, it's good that the national team won't be controlled by two teams anymore. It's that BS that caused problems with Giannakis, kept certain players out like Vasileiadis, that caused the problems in the 2010 team, etc.
And if Olympiacos can win Euroleague last year with a smaller budget than PAO has this year - then PAO is a stupid management if they can't make a decent team. No excuses. Baskonia, Maccabi, Siena, all of these teams have regularly made the Euroleague Final Four with smaller budgets than PAO has right now.
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe some of these Greek players were overpaid? I mean, does any sane person really believe that for example, Tsartsaris ever was worth even half of what he was paid? It's just that now PAO finally wised up and said enough with the nonsense spending. I think this is only going to be help Greek basketball in the future.
If the players don't like it, let them go to a smaller club and league and play in some lesser competition - if money is all that matters to them. And besides that, if Kaimakoglou plays in a club like Galatasaray it won't hurt him. Sure, he will be playing in Eurocup, but he will surely be the leader and star of the team. Which will make him take on more responsibility and he will have to improve his game. Or would you rather just have him stand at the 3 point line and every once in awhile get a post up under Obradovic?
What did Obradovic ever do for any of these players? For all we hear about how he made guys better and "developed them", he sure didn't seem to improve any of them, unless they did so on their own. Besides guys like Spanoulis that got better every year on their own............did Fotsis ever improve? Nope. Did Calathes ever improve? Nope. Did Tsartsaris ever improve? Nope. Did Dikoudis or Hatzivrettas ever improve? Nope.
Most of the players spent years in PAO under Obradovic and never even made an improvement. But in the case of Kaimakoglou, now he will have to improve if he has to take the lead at Galatasaray. Rather than just being an afterthought of Obradovic, behind Diamantidis and Batiste.
Perhaps Greek players are leaving the Greek clubs, but how exactly does this have a negative influence on the Greek national team. That was your question wasn't it? Former Yugoslav players have been playing outside their country for decades, but their national teams have remained strong.
Moreover, Greek teams still have considerable budgets and will be very competitive. Panathinaikos is going through what Olympiakos went through last year. The budget went down and many players decided to follow the money. But Pao like Olympiakos will still have some good material to work with.
The worst thing for Greek basketball is the scenario we witnessed at the end of the 90s, when Pao had an astronomical budget and was a great team, but the best Greek players having minor roles on that team. It's no coinsidence that the Greek NT had a draught between 1999 and 2002. After 2003 it was the young talented players from smaller teams who started to bring the NT on a different level. Papaloukas (Panionios), Diamantidis, Hatzivrettas (Iraklis), Dikoudis, Zisis (AEK), Spanoulis (Marousi).
Lastly, there is nothing sad about these players having to go to remote locations to make a living. They can stay in Athens and be rich, or go to a remote location and be richer. What's sad about that?
PAO EUROPEAN CHAMPION 1996 - 2000 - 2002 - 2007 - 2009 - 2011
Exactly. And in the case of certain players, I think it was fine for them and their career and the national team, that they left Greece. Case in point -->
Papaloukas
Zisis
Schortsanitis
Kakiouzis
Dikoudis
Fotsis
Hatzivrettas
Mavroeidis
All of these guys spent time in other countries and I don't think it hurt them, or the national team. In the case of Kaimakoglou, maybe he can become the new Kakiouzis and have a long career in other leagues. It certainly does not look like Vasileiaidis' career was hurt for example that he left from Olympiacos and went to play in Spain for less money. If anything, it seems like it helped him a lot.
Just think, maybe now Calathes will actually spend some time learning how to shoot in Russia. Because if he does not perform for them, at the money he is making, and being a foreign player - they will just replace him. Unlike in PAO where he was this hyped up media sensation and was just babied by the fans and the coach. He wasn't ever going to work on his jumper in PAO because everyone was telling him how good he was, even when he wasn't.
In Russia they will probably be telling him to spend his whole day in the gym shooting.
And also, players looking to other countries to play can help maybe develop some other guys more. Look at Papamakarios as an example. He was a nice young player with a promising career, and then his career never went anywhere. Olympiacos decided they did not want him and he stayed in mid-level Greek clubs. His career stagnated.
He just went finally to play in the ACB and became a rotation player in a playoff club there, and now he can be again for them next year in ACB and Eurocup. If he had done this 5 or 6 years ago...maybe he would have developed into something more than what he became. Maybe he would have been more than what he ended up as playing in clubs like Makedonikos and Panellinios, simply because they would pay a big salary and he didn't have to leave Greece.
And think of it, maybe Greek players would actually get a fair chance in the NBA, unlike Spanoulis, if some Greek players went there. With enough of them taking the chance, someone will get playing time eventually, even if through being on a horrible team or through other players getting injured. Then the NBA would give Greek players "legit NBA rep". I know this is crazy, but that is how brainless they are in the NBA.
Right now the Greek players are "not good enough for NBA". Well, things would have been different for Spanoulis had Greek players had a good rep in NBA when he went there. It's never going to change as it is now, when ever player like Diamantidis or Papaloukas refuses a chance because "they want to stay in Greece".
Someone has to take the chance like Spanoulis did, and if more than one guy did it, they might actually get a chance to play. As it is now, I think every Greek player is terrified of the NBA, because they wrongly think Spanoulis didn't play because he was not good enough. Without understanding that the NBA is biased against Greek players, because they think in very stupid absolutes. "No Greek NBA player = no Greeks can play in NBA".
This kind of thinking has to stop from the Greek players.
Last edited by Olympiacos; 07-02-2012 at 12:40 AM.
You guys have made some excellent points. I feel much better about the mass exodus of players. I hope the Greek NT will remain strong in the years to come despite it. But I do hope that none of these players go to the NBA to be on the bench of some team, misused and underappreciated. As you have said, what matters most is that, wherever they are, Greek players are getting playing time, are well coached and are being encouraged to improve their game.
Actually, all of these players got better under Obradovic. Perhaps the skillset of these players didn't get much better, but their mental toughness and the understanding of basketball basics has excelled under Obradovic. They can do whatever simple things they could always do, on the highest level.
Calathes made huge leaps since he got here, but it's true he's not at the level of DD, Span, Papaloukas. On the other hand, they weren't much better at his age either. In fact, only Zisis was better than Calathes when he was his age.
PAO EUROPEAN CHAMPION 1996 - 2000 - 2002 - 2007 - 2009 - 2011
I agree about the NBA. For example if Papanikolaou goes to the Knicks like he says he will, and he just sits on the bench or never does anything but stand at the 3 point line, then his career will stagnate and he will be a loss to the national team. Of course, every NBA fan and American will say "the NBA made him better".
The Greek players should not be in the NBA unless they get used properly. Unfortunately, it seems that the whole Spanoulis thing with the coach that didn't like him, has ruined pretty much the whole situation for Greek players. Spanoulis simply asked to do something other than stand at the 3 point line, and he was permanently benched for just asking it.
See, I disagree. I don't think they improved at all. Certainly not the mental aspect through Obradovic. They got tougher through playing in the derby games, not through Obradovic's coaching. This is the wrong thinking related to Greek basketball. Things like Obradovic made players better. Only he didn't.
Calathes made what improvement? Really? He hasn't improved one bit. He's more matured and he's more composed, simply from experience. He hasn't actually improved one skill of his game and actually he's a much worse shooter now than he was before.
Fotsis? What did Obradovic ever do to improve Fotsis? Absolutely nothing as far as I can tell.
I hope they never go to the NBA. What's so special about the NBA? I love the fact that Greece has made a name for itself without having any players in the NBA. I love the fact that Greece beat the USA with ZERO NBA players. Greece is an advertisement for European/international basketball and the Euroleague. They are competing and frequently beating international teams, full of NBA players. Greece is the epitome of how far international basketball has developed. I won't feel richer if Greece has players performing well in the NBA. Other Europeans have already broken that barrier. It's nothing special anymore. Greece has shown the world something different. Something of its own doing. That a good EL roster can win medals at the world stage, that basketball is very much alive, and that there is another world of basketball out there which is following its own path, developing on its own terms and that the players do not consider the NBA as the Mecca of basketball.
PAO EUROPEAN CHAMPION 1996 - 2000 - 2002 - 2007 - 2009 - 2011
Diamantidis said it himself: "When I came to Pao I realised I only knew little about basketball. PAO opened a new world for me. Basketball became a science and not simply a sport."
PAO EUROPEAN CHAMPION 1996 - 2000 - 2002 - 2007 - 2009 - 2011
Because no Greek players are given a chance there. That's why. Greece should not be the only country that has this label of "no Greeks can play in the NBA". It's actually the only country in the world that has such a stigma attached to it basketball-wise.
Yes, the NBA is so overrated it isn't even funny. That was not my point. My point was that for Greek players that are good enough, the NBA should be an option if they want it to be, where they would be treated fairly and equally, and be given a fair chance, and a role that fits to them.
Right now that's not even an option or possibility. Which is totally bizarre, as any Turk, Italian, Lithuanian, Russia player with a pulse is being drooled over by the NBA. If you are in the top 30 Spanish players, the NBA is fighting over you, but if you are the top 2-3 Greek players - "not good enough for the NBA". My point was that Greek players should not have just Russia or Turkey as an option if they want more money. No other European countries players have to deal with this NBA bias against them, so Greece's players shouldn't have to either. But as of right now, they do.
This has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Diamantidis and Batiste got better because the whole team was built for them. I am talking about the other players of the team. They either got better though their own effort (Spanoulis, Kaimakoglou), or they stayed the same, or they even got worse.
Of course Diamantidis got way better, because the whole team was designed for him and through him. If anything, I think Fotsis regressed under Obradovic. Because all he was ever supposed to do was stand at the 3 point line. Do you think Pat Calathes or Kyritsis got better under Obradovic?
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