"New generation"
"Mixed national team"
to straight forward
Nobody said macedonia is most athletic team.But their play very physical game ,i meant all of them were putting bodys on everyone who came closer to basket.Why do think our pickenroll wasnt working in that game? they just pushed off valanciunas everytime,that fat PF of macadonia he is awfull player,but he definitely has strenght,samardzikis, and antic they just antrebounded us and this was the main thing why we werent able to run away from them.Even when they outrebounded us,we had a win in our hands we just made silly mistakes in last minute leading 65-61 and loosing 65-67...
What im trying to say,that physical teams arent good matchups for our youngsters valanciunas and motiejunas and macedonias was one of them...This is why i say motiejunas would be same story as with Jonas in that game,he would be just pushed off him easily... remember who was our best offensive player in that game javtokas 14points..because macedonia style is similiar to javtokas no technique just strenght...Strenght you have to meet with strenght and once again here we miss maciulis and kleiza...Motiejunas wouldnt be a factor in that game...
Why do say our plan didnt work? we were leading 39 minutes and reach final minute leading by 4 points...even when we lost rebounding game ...kemzura said after game: how can we run fastbreak if we dont grab a rebound?
Theorethically petravicius could make even bigger diference,because its his game psysical pushing games...But this only a theory...
Btw this is answer why kemzura put on the floor mostly in that game javtokas and songaila...When you see with no emotions,you can see why kemzura was making one or other desicion in game progress,the thing is when you loose nobody wants to hear and see that,but still i dont blame kemzura or other coaches,they thought from logical point of view. ok songaila and jasikevicius made mistakes that lost this game,but you can put all blame one episode... macedonia were lucky too at the end of the game everything gone their way in last the minute...If jasaitis would made that open shot nobodys remembers songailas mistake or jasikevicius tournavers.Its stupid to put all blame on songaila...
Last edited by Shawshank; 03-05-2012 at 05:06 PM.
no, the reason why we lost that game was not because of some mythical "strenght" of macedonians (LMAO at Smaradziski being some jacked up physical monsterOriginally Posted by Shawshank
), but because of retarded tactics of Kemzura. Do you remember how we played majority of that game? We were shooting JUMPER after JUMPER, without going inside and drawing fouls on Antic and Smaradziski. DO you really believe that Antic, who likes to camp at the 3 point line, and Smaradziski would have stayed on the court all game long if they were properly challenged inside? And Valanciunas barely played in that game and was not used properly at all...do you remember those games against Serbia, Spain and Germany? Teams with tall, long frontlines? Yup, he sure struggled against those giants I guess
My point is that coach K laid an egg in that game and it should be obvious to anyone who has at least minimal basketball knowledge...
But come on, Songaila was terrible in that game. Only 2 rebounds in 29 minutes? Why would Kemzura keep him on court? He's slow and old. Motiejunas would've outrun Antic in that game; and at least he's a better passer than Songaila.
And Jasaitis wouldn't have been pressured to take such an important shot in the last seconds if Songaila didn't make that turnover.
to madmax:
Valanciunas just made a couple of stupid mistakes - 5 turnovers in 10 minutes. But at least he has experience playing with Samardziski, so I am pretty sure he'll do better in the Qualifying Tournament when (if) we play Macedonia.
Last edited by macleopard13; 03-06-2012 at 01:41 AM.
to mad max In siemens arena nobody from opponents was expecting from valanciunas anything and when you have such pg as jasikevicius he will find open man with eyes closed and half of those easy dunks of Jonas was because of jasikevicius...those 3 games lithuania introduce Valanciunas to european mens basketball and in 1/4 macedonia was prepared for those pickeroll runs ... How do think who is the more important player in that pikenroll play jaska or jonas?
Big and long its not always strong and physical...Valanciuna wasnt ready to play in that such type of game in september and those 10min he was making minus,so what you suggested to kemzura ,still put him and not javtokas who had good game? When there were left about 5 minutes kemzura last time tried valanciunas with jasikevicius,but still he did two mistakes and its was enough for kemzura.
I dont wanna hear that crap about kemzura bad coaching and bad tactics because you dont have enough skills and understanding to judge kemzura as coach...So keep that bull shit to your drinking budies at bar watching games,but not make as factor because we lost...
macleopard --> songaila played so much,because jankunas was in foul trouble very early and ksistof were playing awfull tournament.So what should have kemzura do with PF position in game progress?
yes it was crusial songailas mistake,but once again its same as to put all blame on siskauskas in 2000...Its just ridiculuos,if you dont like the guy ok,but dont make such stupid arguments because he made that mistake his not welcome no more in nationall team...Its not even an argument its just likes and dislikes talking.Songaila wasnt our worse player in 2011 eb...But i agree that i feel too its time for our national team to go with no songaila and no brothers,but its not because that one mistake ,but because father time is getting on all them and we have very promising younger players at that position .
Last edited by Shawshank; 03-12-2012 at 09:04 AM.
Budies? It's not nice to call alcoholics all people around from your sideSpecially when I believe most of the guys here played or playing basketball and tried to work with different coaches and follows BB all their lives
Even Kemzūra by himself said he made mistakes not that opened as Sabas and I respect him because of that.
The flick from the future...
He has a good point hereBudies? It's not nice to call alcoholics all people around from your sideLike it's said - Lithuania has 3mln coaches and majority of them are sitting infront of TV or in a pub with a beer and bitching about everything like they know it all... It's a fact. But by no means they are alcoholics
Also if you play bball with a friends or in a school or even practising more seriously or maybe even playin' professionally, that doesn't mean you know everything about strategies, tactics, combinations, you have abilities to analyse your own and rivals strenghts and weakenesses, to take the right decisions and etc. It's a tough job, surely not for everyone. There're lot of cases when even the best players failed at coaching. Moreover, lot of people forgets that coaches sees smth that none of fans does - practises.
About guys here.... With no intentions to insult anyone, but sadly Lithuanian section of this forum is nowhere near to the level it was in some 2007-2009. It was like a fresh air from Lithuanian bball sites' "discussions". Now it's different. Sadly lot of valuable members are not active anymore, writes rarely or doesn't do that at all. There're still some left, some new appeared, but not majority anymore... Hope it'll change for the better someday
People get old, getting married, too busy making money/studying or just prefer fresh air. Another reason could be - Žalgiris' never ending crisis as majority of senior poster are fans of that damn clubHe has a good point here
Also if you play bball with a friends or in a school or even practising more seriously or maybe even playin' professionally, that doesn't mean you know everything about strategies, tactics, combinations, you have abilities to analyse your own and rivals strenghts and weakenesses, to take the right decisions and etc. It's a tough job, surely not for everyone. There're lot of cases when even the best players failed at coaching. Moreover, lot of people forgets that coaches sees smth that none of fans does - practises.
About guys here.... With no intentions to insult anyone, but sadly Lithuanian section of this forum is nowhere near to the level it was in some 2007-2009. It was like a fresh air from Lithuanian bball sites' "discussions". Now it's different. Sadly lot of valuable members are not active anymore, writes rarely or doesn't do that at all. There're still some left, some new appeared, but not majority anymore... Hope it'll change for the better somedayAnd maybe the fall of Lithuanian NT. We are rebuilding since about 2008 and even if we managed to get good results lately, the excitement about NT is nowhere close to the level it used to when Šaras and Co. was at their best. Usually some posters coming by when NT gets in action though.
The flick from the future...
I see we still preserve old Lithuanian tradition to dig in past and blame someone... Better would be to analyse mistakes and don't make it again.
Songaila was our most stable player during all turnament, so it is understandable why Kemzūra trusted him, and Jankūnas was in foul trouble, Valančiūnas wasn't doing anything useful in that game, Lavrinovič wasn't doing anything useful in that turnament. So what other options coach had in that crucial game? We didn't have Kleiza and Mačiulis, so we were just out of options. Ask any couch who will be on a flour in crucial minutes and he will answer veterans with good freethrow shots. Yes Kemzūra's taktics in that game didn't work, we had to play faster and more agressive, becourse we had bench and Macedonia had only 6 players, they were simply walking all 3 and 4 quaters and we were simply missing open middle range shots. But all these things still doesn't matter, because we lost not because of all these tactical mistakes, but because of our own stupidity - these 2 mistakes are unexplainable to me, just sometimes "shit happens", period. Live with that.
Back to 2012NT - I woted for mixed team, because i think to devide players by age is wrong idea. It is our national team - best players must play, not older or youngers ones. And now lets see what we have:
PG - Jasikevičius (yes he is old, yes he is slow, yes he should be changed in some moments, but he still can play 15min. on highest level and has biggest basketball IQ in Europe)
- Kalnietis (he still is our best new generation PG, the ones who are talking about Janavičius, Čižauskas and so on... People are you serious? It is Olimpic games.)
SG - Seibutis (He shows it was a big mistake not to take him to NT2011, can run, can shoot, can play one on one, can defend)
- Pocius (Same us Seibutis + better physics)
- Dulkys (Say what you want, but i specially whached some of his games on internet TV's, he has energy, speed and skills we need + he can defend)
About Gecevičius - i don't think he is NT material, i don't see him doing something more in Olympiacos. He is the same he was in Rytas. He still can't defend, ca't run, can't play one on one, don't have energy level we need in NT - sniper with very limited minutes. And to keep someone who can only shoot is a bit of luxury.
And sorry Kaukėnas (one of my favorite players), but i don't think that after such injury at age 35, he will recover fast enough and will show spead and intencity we are used.
SF - Mačiulis (He and Jasaitis are our two best deffencive players, who can defend from SG to PF, great rebounders, one our best stealer, other sniper and both have character of fighters)
- Jasaitis (Look higher
PF - Kleiza (Just our best player)
- Jankūnas (The only real PF with very stable shooting and persistent enough to defend)
- Motiejūnas (If after this season Kemzūra will not take Motiejūnas i somehow will start to compare him with Sereika, who didn't take Kaukėnas to OG2004 and took Gustas, because he mismatched his conception of game... And we missed such player against Italy very much)
I think it is time to let Lavrinovič brothers to pension - Jankūnas and Motiejūnas look better, brothers allways were bad defenders and we don't need 2 sticks running around 3 point line and don't trying to chalenge oponents.
C - Javtokas (In the begining and even the middle of this season i thought he is finished, but at the end we see he still is the best defensive plan center in Lithuania + he plays much better for NT, shows much more passion, goddamit he played in WC2010 with injuries others would fly home. After that he is in my list of "vyras"
- Valančiūnas (Our future and i think in this young fast playing team he will show all he can - fast breaks with Valančiūnas... I am waiting it
Petravičius is a good player, but very breakable, it hurt us much last championship.
And yes i think 2 centers + 2 power forwards are more then enough and i will explain why - on WC2010 we had Tadas Klimavičius (204cm), who played very limited minutes, Paulius Jankūnas (205cm), Martynas Andriuškevičius (218cm) played just few minutes, Robertas Javtokas (211cm). So basiclly we played only with Javtokas and Jankūnas (or Jankūnas, Mačiulis, Jasaitis and Kleiza changing each other) and we were outrebounding everyone becourse our smaller players (Mačiulis, Jasaitis, Kleiza) helped them very well and big players were not standing in zone, but allways moving.
And on EC2011 we had Paulius Jankunas, Darius Songaila, Jonas Valanciunas, Ksistof Lavrinovic, Robertas Javtokas, but didn't have Kleiza and Mačiulis and almost everyone were outrebounding us, because game become static and predictable, we missed agressivity and speed Kleiza and Mačiulis were giving us.
That's my optimal NT, if someone wouldn't be able to play then we could put in the list Delininkaitis, Gecevičius, Kaukėnas, Songaila, Lavrinovič brothers, Petravičius, Katelynas or M.Kuzminskas.
Last edited by Ashtrusis_dantis; 03-14-2012 at 11:14 AM.
Somehow Žalgiris with it's "never ending crysis" still is the best team in Lithuania + quite regularlly reaches top 16 (yes usually is losing at that level bla bla bla, but it still is between best 16 teams in Europe). To the top Šaras & company were going from 1997 and reached it 2003, maybye you don't remember but between OG1996 (when old generation left) and OG2000 when new generation reached first result we had 4 years and i remember during that period was the same crying that sky isn't blue enough and grass isn't green enough anymore... But when new generation reached result and again grass was green and sky was blue.People get old, getting married, too busy making money/studying or just prefer fresh air. Another reason could be - Žalgiris' never ending crisis as majority of senior poster are fans of that damn club
Žalgiris never did big thing in Europe since 2004 and that's the key.Somehow Žalgiris with it's "never ending crysis" still is the best team in Lithuania + quite regularlly reaches top 16 (yes usually is losing at that level bla bla bla, but it still is between best 16 teams in Europe). To the top Šaras & company were going from 1997 and reached it 2003, maybye you don't remember but between OG1996 (when old generation left) and OG2000 when new generation reached first result we had 4 years and i remember during that period was the same crying that sky isn't blue enough and grass isn't green enough anymore... But when new generation reached result and again grass was green and sky was blue.
I never said the sky isn't blue
And for me putting Dulkys in the roster is the same as to put Janavičius or Čižauskas. I don't see the difference though I'm happy that he's invited for the camp.
The flick from the future...
wait a moment! have you read my coments or only what you wanted to see?Budies? It's not nice to call alcoholics all people around from your side
How many teams have you coached in your life? im playing basketball 15years and i know shit about coaching if i would compare my knowledge in coaching and kemzuras.Please tell me where sabonis said that kemzura coaching were bad i dont see that? He said maybe coaches did two mistake in choosing players,but not in coaching ! So why you and mad max all the time bring same crap about bad kemzuras coaching because he didnt took poor motiejunas to team? cha cha
Yes maybe at the end of the bench not veterans ksistof and delininkaitis should have sitted but young motiejunas and seibutis,but i hope atleast you understand that as they (kisistof and tomas) didnt see alot of playing time,same would have happen with those two?
repeating with Kleiza and maciulis we would have made top4 no doubt about that and doesnt matter motiejunas would have been sitting on the end of the bench or not...Donatas need atleast 2-3 year in national team for experiencing to produce in important games,first 2 years usually rookies playing only against weaker teams and sitting off all playoofs stages.So what about valanciunas you would say? his diferent case,his unique as sabonis was and still even he could do alot in playoofs games against macedonia and slovenia...But Such type of kid comes once in 20-30 years...
Last edited by Shawshank; 03-14-2012 at 05:41 PM.
Are you brainless? Noone knows how he will fit outside NCAA. Maybe very good, maybe not, maybe average. But invitation to the camp seems to be logical, cause he's interesting player.Žalgiris never did big thing in Europe since 2004 and that's the key.
I never said the sky isn't blue
And for me putting Dulkys in the roster is the same as to put Janavičius or Čižauskas. I don't see the difference though I'm happy that he's invited for the camp.
In this comment - nope, in earlier post... Yes.Do I sound sceptical?
You show signs of big subjectivity here. Lets compare - both these players are PG's not SG's for a begining... +Janavičius shooting skills are pure, his dribling is hm... Ugly...And for me putting Dulkys in the roster is the same as to put Janavičius or Čižauskas. I don't see the difference though I'm happy that he's invited for the camp.
You see what you want and don't see what trully is...Žalgiris never did big thing in Europe since 2004 and that's the key.
And now facts - Žalgiris international (without BBL, NEBL) trophies:
1986 - William Jones cup
1998 - Eurocup
1999 - Euroleague
As we can see, after wining William Jones cup Žalgiris was waiting 12 years to win new trophy. During period from 1991 to something like 1996 situation was much worse, Žalgiris was wining only LKL, that's it. And now Žalgiris is playing with the best in Europe and usually is between 16 best teams... So you call it "never ending crysis"?
Dreamcatcher, you won't make a nice conversation starting with "are you brainless"?
Shawshank, avoiding tho express your opinion about things you don't know professionally means you can barely talk about anything in this world. And that would be even more awkward if you couldn't say a word about the thing you are observing for plenty of years.
Ashtrusis_dantis, I might be too harsh on Žalgiris.It's a very rare thing when small budget team does something big in Euroleague. Žalgiris is not on the level of best Euroleague's teams financially so it might just be objective achievements. But tell me you don't expect something more.
The flick from the future...
Yeah, but most of the time, it's pure luck that Zalgiris gets in. They can just beat the really weak teams to claim the 4th place. They haven't upset a good team in years (since 2008-09 season, I think). So I would consistently place them 16th in Europe.You see what you want and don't see what trully is...
And now facts - Žalgiris international (without BBL, NEBL) trophies:
1986 - William Jones cup
1998 - Eurocup
1999 - Euroleague
As we can see, after wining William Jones cup Žalgiris was waiting 12 years to win new trophy. During period from 1991 to something like 1996 situation was much worse, Žalgiris was wining only LKL, that's it. And now Žalgiris is playing with the best in Europe and usually is between 16 best teams... So you call it "never ending crysis"?
Listen man are you able to understand english or not?
What crap you are talking again? firtsly about alkoholic thats was funny,now that i dont know anything about basketball.Once again WHERE DID I SAID THAT? i said if comparing my knowledge to kemzura,not that i dont know anything about coaching.You dont understand english or dont wanna hear...anyway i would say this i said more about kemzuras coaching in championship than you did,but still it would be just drink bar talks for me to judge top3 lithuanian coach...For those 3 millions bar experts there no coach in the world that all of them would be satisfied...When i see from you any real arguments why kemzura sucked in that chmapionshio,maybe i will take you seriuosly, right now all your talks about kemzura not taking motiejunas ITS JUST BAR FANS TALKS nothing more...Funny when i feel people who knows even less than i do,but still judges kemzura cha cha ironic and funny ,but this lithunians bar fans atitude and always will be
You cant even answer any of the questions of your funny statemens you made and can defend them ,just making strange facts from your own view and then changing it with other funny statemens
Yes, you are very right with that. Before the season Žalgiris complectation looked imperessive and i (secretllyAshtrusis_dantis, I might be too harsh on Žalgiris.It's a very rare thing when small budget team does something big in Euroleague. Žalgiris is not on the level of best Euroleague's teams financially so it might just be objective achievements. But tell me you don't expect something more.
But to call TOP16 crysis... Wouldn't call that, just not very successful season.
There is no such thing like pure luck. You are giving me your opinion and i am giving you fact that Žalgiris is in Top16. And to get to TOP16 Žalgiris had to win some crucial games and did it. You look a little bit overweighted to me. And i can remind you, that yes Žalgiris lost a lot of games, but most of them in tough endings. History don't acknowledge subjunctives, but i think with better reffering Žalgiris would win game against Macabi and then it would be a different story.Yeah, but most of the time, it's pure luck that Zalgiris gets in. They can just beat the really weak teams to claim the 4th place. They haven't upset a good team in years (since 2008-09 season, I think). So I would consistently place them 16th in Europe.
Oh yes, describe what do you call "a good team" and when we will dispute. Ulker, Caja Laboral isn't good enough to you? Khimki? Or you are talking only about Top4 teams? Žalgiris won against these teams in season 10/11... Usually it's better to check stats and wright later.
p.s. I think we should finish off topic.
Nearly agree with everything .apart where Romanov has to shut up.His money,his say.Simple as that.I hope he can get things right for the next season.would not bet on this -but hopingYes, you are very right with that. Before the season Žalgiris complectation looked imperessive and i (secretlly
But to call TOP16 crysis... Wouldn't call that, just not very successful season.
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