Quiet Revolution: EL & VTB come to an agreement
Some months ago Jordi was pissed off by VTB expansion to proper EL territory & was about to force EL participating teams to leave VTB and return to national leagues.
The problem for Jordi is that VTB league has a backing of 2-nd strong man in Russia ( after Putin): Sergey Ivanov, so at the end Jordi was forced to give up his ultimatum and throw a white flag.
This week they met in Moscow & come to agreement with quite shocking details:
- Maintain the same number of places in the Euroleague and Eurocup competitions for each country
- Integrate the United League into the Euroleague Basketball competition structure
- Maintain space in the clubs competitions calendar so that each United League participant can also play in their National League
http://www.euroleague.net/euroleague...s/i/96464/6330
not surprising - the russian money talks and makes everyone happy again
So much for all "ultimatums" and other big talk from the spanish poser as long as his pockets are filled with dirty money from East
Well, EL has a budget of 26-28M Euro , less then CSKA alone
I an't quite sure what "maintain the same number of places in the Euroleague and Eurocup competitions for each country" mean. Did Jordi agree to give equal number of EL spots to Russia & Kazakhstan ?
There is some details from Ivanov:
VTB United League will be in the Euroleague country ranking. The main idea is that the results of the VTB United League will give permission for the clubs to go to the Euroleague and the Eurocup.
basically playing in local competition will effectively render meaningless for Eastern european clubs...VTB will become the most prestigious tournament after Euroleague and everyone will be fighting with their teeth and claws there.
Bullshit! Fuck the VTB!
so VTB wwill become somethin like Adriatic league?Originally Posted by Billy Bounce
Some months ago Jordi was pissed off by VTB expansion to proper EL territory & was about to force EL participating teams to leave VTB and return to national leagues.
The problem for Jordi is that VTB league has a backing of 2-nd strong man in Russia ( after Putin): Sergey Ivanov, so at the end Jordi was forced to give up his ultimatum and throw a white flag.
This week they met in Moscow & come to agreement with quite shocking details:
- Maintain the same number of places in the Euroleague and Eurocup competitions for each country
- Integrate the United League into the Euroleague Basketball competition structure
- Maintain space in the clubs competitions calendar so that each United League participant can also play in their National League
http://www.euroleague.net/euroleague...s/i/96464/6330
Romeo Travis about Zadar coach Ante NazorRomeo Travis @RomeTrav
I said coach why we practice so much. He said God will bless us after all this hard work. How can I argue with that !
Kind of. The difference there will be no Russian national league anymore. Spartak Primorie ( small club from Russian Far East ) is axed from VTB due to lack of modern arena ( more like lack of desire of big sharks to fly there) Another small club - Triumph (3-rd ranked club in PBL right now) promised VTB qualification spot.
F**k you, moronic russophobe (I'm not joking, just read his interviews, like the one before last EC where he said that he would be surprised if our national team would make it to the quaterfinals!) Ivanov, f**k you, Vatutin, f**k you, brainless Russian basketball officials, fuck you, ULEB corrupt officials for not being persistent enough.
We have the second best league in Europe in terms of players quality which was becoming more and more competitive. And these bastards annihilate it with stillborn marasmic VTB. They ruin our league by their own hands. Who in Russia would care for the games with Ukrainian and Estonian teams (and for all other Eastern-European ones, except ex-Yugo which is not an option and maybe Zalgiris and Rytas)? There will be only 8 (eight!) Russian teams in this new league. My God, we are heading towards Luxemburgian and Albanian heights with this number of the teams in the league. Only 8 teams from Russia will play top league basketball! Current 10 is shameful really, but 8 is beyond all reason.
What do we really need? Only a simple thing really - just look at the best European experience and adapt it to our realities. Which are the best, most stable and most competitive domestic leagues in Europe? Spanish and Italian ones. With 18 and 17 teams in it currently. We have enough quality (including native players many of whom are obviously talented but can't realize their potential in the current system), money and public interest to built stable interior league with 16-18 teams in it and to renovate basketball in its traditional centres like Perm', Irkutsk, Saratov, etc.
I am feeling ashamed of sharing the country with the morons who killed our league, the one which has decades of great basketball traditions. All in all, I'm extremely angered by this criminal decision.
Why would mediocre Eastern-European teams take place of the more talented Russian ones?
To me there is no sense that such huge countrie like Russia with basketball tradition, money investors, and player potential has no it's own league.
Romeo Travis about Zadar coach Ante NazorRomeo Travis @RomeTrav
I said coach why we practice so much. He said God will bless us after all this hard work. How can I argue with that !
pohani, I rarely agree with you but here you really nailed it. Russian basketball deserves its own league and there are all prerequisites for it to be one of the leading in Europe.
Look at the bright side:
Ivanov has a total control over Russian clubs & federation, but he has zero power to force Lithuanian , Polish, Ukrainian federations to gave up their national Euro spots for a mickey mouse VTB league.
Without Lithuanian , Polish, Ukraine Euro spots , VTB will remain mickey mouse league for Zalgiris , Rytas, Prokom, Donetsk, etc in the case they will participate in it ( there are chances they won't cause EL, EC will add 8 more games next season, leaving no space in their calendar)
For Russian clubs this league will be national league , no matter it will be called VTB, PBL or whatever.
PS. After todays CSKA loss, there is a non zero chance Ivanov will take it personally & will leave Russian basketball alone .
I do not really follow situation in Russian basketball into detail, but imo some people following the easier ways are getting too influential in Russia obviously. The pool of players with Russian citizenship is too small to pursue a bigger league (although Russia has way more than enough talent to do that judging from most younger generations I remember).
I mean, reading interviews with Vujošević and Filipovski after, what can rightfully be described as a failure with CSKA I got the feeling majority of clubs aren't really interested in developing Russian young players and prefer solely results instead. Zdovc on the other hand is also whineing about not being able to sign enough quality Russian players for his team as the prices for the better ones goes sky-high. Yet selection of youngsters was brutal in some generations in the past, with small details determing either getting into U18 NT or eventualy being forgotten (while the same is happening in other countries, majority of those still somehow manages not to forget those mid-level talents to some extent) and loads of, once perceived as good talents, end up nowhere at the age of 22-25.
On the contrary tenths of millions are getting spend by the top clubs, trying to buy off just about every european player that isn't too scared of the climate.
If only one tenth (or even less) of those funds would be put in some long term programs with talented youth that are on the edge of transforming into serious players (= from the age of 18-22) I think results would be enormous.
This way I believe too many Russian teams are only interested in the short term result and it should be a matter of time before someone realises the only way to compete with the enormous funds of top5 teams is going with youth (even if those top5 will still try everything to land every single most talented player they can), that's the longer path, but still unlike the shorter, easier one, pans out way better in the long term, especialy when whole nation's bball is concerned. When that happens pool of Russian players would be too big to even remotely think about only a 8-team league and such, as you mentioned, I do imagine Russia having the potential (including the raw talented kids that get lost in the transition) to compete with Spain or Italy. But as long as Russia's talent gets depressed as 5 jack-asses that run their top5 respective clubs just don't care all that much about them, that's tough to expect...
(once again, that's my impression of the things in Russia, could be wrong)
i just don't belive that such huge countire with actually big basketball tradition can't have anuff players to create very good league
i'm sure it's only do to bad work
Romeo Travis about Zadar coach Ante NazorRomeo Travis @RomeTrav
I said coach why we practice so much. He said God will bless us after all this hard work. How can I argue with that !
This is bad move for Russian basketball, Russia is not some small European country so it needs to create regional league to keep basketball at a high level, its biggest country in the world, with rich basketball tradition, potential, capacity and money after all for good national league. Obviously problem here is that some people have short-term planning, and yes maybe 3-4 biggest clubs will benefit from it, but whats with others?
This is the age we are currently living in, where war is peace, ignorance is strength and slavery is freedom.
Joško Poljak Fan, talking about the capacity of Russian players pool - it's massive enough to have a league with at least 16 high-quality teams. We have no problems with really talented players but the huge problems with their realization. A gigantic amount of talent is wasted in the most stupid ways possible.
First of all, rich superclubs buy very good native players already knowing that they wouldn't play decent minutes no matter how they try and how much playing time they really deserve. And these players are gutless and not brave enough to find another variants of career continuation when they would play and not sit on the bench. They are happy with their financially good contracts and never mind benchwarming for years. Just look at CSKA: Dmitri Sokolov plays only garbage time there for the third year in a row and before the transfer to CSKA he was one of the most promising and progressing Russian centers in his last seasons with UNICS (which isn't a shitty team, you know) where he (while still raw and sometimes clumsy) was really impressive averaging 10 ppg in 2008-2009 EuroCup. Zhenya Voronov was the most pleasant surprise in our NT for WC 2010 and is really one of the best defenders (especially playing one on one) in Russia (not only among Russians) and he also only warms the bench in the Army Club. The most striking example is still Anton Ponkrashov who is the best Russian PG at the moment (though he is very unstable and could be really brainless): he spent 2010-2011 season with Spartak SPb which is a very good team (Top 16 EL level) and was one of its leaders but now he is a deep bencher in CSKA. I won't even babble about Nikita Kurbanov who wasted all his massive talent by stupid career moves - and this is a guy who was rightfully MVP of U-20 EC of 2005.
Talking about this Chekhov Tournament - we have a huge generation of mid 80s born. Look at European U20 champions of 2005: Fridzon, Kurbanov, Shabalkin, Ponkrashov, Vyaltsev, Sokolov, Komarovskiy, Kolesnikov, Voronov, Zavoruev. Any of them could become mid- to high- level European star. And as of now only Vitalik Fridzon has reached that status. Moreover, aside from Fridzon, Vyaltsev (whose decent playing time in Khimki was a real surprise) and Andrei Komarovskiy with Evgeni Kolesnikov (of whom last two have played for mid-level clubs Enisey and Krasnie Krylia respectively) no one of them have played more than 15 minutes per game for his team this season. And they aren't untalented or lazy players: there are just not enough clubs in Russia for them to become leaders there or they are stupid and greedy enough to accept CSKA or other major clubs invitations while they already know that they wouldn't have much of a playing time there. Or look at Pavel Sergeev. This guy is highly talented and very clever - definitely he can fill big Vassili Karasev's boots to become the elite PG for our NT. He came to Spartak SPb and I hoped that he will prove himself to be an even more quality player for them than Ponkrashov was last season. What we got here: he played only less than 10 games this season. I don't know why Zdovc chose to bench him eternally but the guy who is obviously very talented just wasted a year in his life. Or look at the early 80s born big guys - Andrei Trushkin and Yura Vasiliev. Both of them could be elite players but something just don't click and they are mostly role players even in the mediocre teams where they are playing now.
If we add 6-8 teams to the already established 10 then we'll have enough opportunities for these talented players to shine and to realize their potential instead of warming the bench for the superclubs or struggling in the mid-powers. And if they would play real minutes and if they would be trusted by their coaches and not get benched after any misstep and failure (it is the Damocles sword on almost any Russian player in the top club while star 'legioners' with mega-contracts can have a really bad day and still play some 30 minutes or even more) then they can in perspective become really valuable guys even for the rich top clubs and not some role players or deep benchers. Also many young talented guys who often get lost with the transition to adult basketball can use their chances to play not only marginal role.
Look at Russia's results in 2000s at U-20 EC: 4th in 2002, Champions in 2005, 4th in 2007, 4th in 2011. Overall appearances in Top 4 from 2000 to 2011: Spain - 7 (well, it's not surprising as they are the best really); Russia - 4; France - 4; Serbia - 4; Greece - 4; Italy - 4; Slovenia - 3; Lithuania - 3 (with all the bragging about the best European youth system); Israel - 3 (all in early 2000s); Croatia - 2; Turkey - 2. So there is only Spain who clearly overcame Russia on the youth basketball level and it's not a shame as Spain is huge in bball and has the best basketball league in the world (yup, you read it correctly - in the world, not only in Europe). Or at U-16 EC: 2nd in 2001, 3rd in 2003, 2nd in 2004, 2nd in 2006. These results tell you that there aren't much problems with our youth. And I must note that there is an old Soviet tradition that our players are maturing later than Western ones and progress the most not in their late teens but in their early 20s. So the major problem is not the talent crisis (there isn't such a thing in Russian bb) but fucked-upness of clubs managers and mostly foreign coaches who don't give a fuck about the progress of young Russian players and have their concentration mostly on short-term goals with huge investments to buy foreign superstars to get result right here, right now. And even with all that problems and minuses the situation in Russian bb is slowly but steadily improving. In the mid-2000s there weren't Russian basketball school products who played significant role in our top clubs as they were almost exclusively foreign players-dominated. Right now we have Khryapa, Shved (so individually talented, so unabashedly stupid), Vorontsevich and Kaun in CSKA, Fridzon, Monya, Vyaltsev, Zhukanenko in Khimki, Veremeenko (yes, I know that he is a Belarusian NT player but still he is a product of Saratov basketball school), Samoylenko, Savrasenko, Yakovenko in UNICS (Bogachev and Pashutin seem to have obsession with players whose surnames ending on -ko), Likhodey, Keiru and Zozulin in Spartak SPb and Bykov, Grigoriev, Sheleketo in Lokomotiv-Kuban. They all play some decent to high role in their respective teams. And these all are EL-level teams.
So we need our own league and it needs to be big and we have enough money, infrastructure and players to make this league on par with the ACB. But our bastard bb decision-makers kill our basketball all by themselves which is a shame really.
You don't know this bastard. He will accuse all the others including God the Almighty for his own mistakes and keep on smiling while saying: 'I'm doing all my best but you can't built the good basketball in the country so underdeveloped'. Though I will definitely light a big candle in the Church if he will leave Russian basketball alone actuallyAfter todays CSKA loss, there is a non zero chance Ivanov will take it personally & will leave Russian basketball alone
Dude, look at the results of different youth, not only u-20, groups and you'll see the difference (aslo, why do you talk only about EC, lets include u-20 world championship)
Last edited by Z.A.L.I.A.; 05-19-2012 at 07:59 AM.
Terrorizer, you make a strong argument that the talent is there to support a Russian league of 16 teams and say there is the money and infrastructure but do you have faith that those teams would be financially stable? Dynamo Moscow, Dynamo St Petersburg and Ural Great Perm all went bankrupt after being successful. This doesn't just happen in Russia but it seems like there's a lot of recent examples of Russian clubs overstretching themselves.
About the players, I don't get why Ponkrashov went back to CSKA again. Seemed like a backward step. And was Khimki the right choice for Khvostov?
Not only that. Compare average U-20 Lithuanian with most of the other nations. Our players look like kid's while some from Spain looks like in their mid 30's.Dude, look at the results of different youth, not only u-20, groups and you'll see the difference (aslo, why do you talk only about EC, lets include u-20 world championship)
Well Lithuanians have north genes meaning they do reach adolescence later than a lot of other european countries. Still it doesn't put that big of obstacles showing good results in u-15, U-16, U-17 (other than the latest generation which frankly sucks other than Seskus), U-18 and U-19 as a rule show good results but U-20 are normally rather bad. Ironically this year the golden Valanciunas generation (playing for U-20) probably will show only mediocre results too without Valanciunas.
Because Spaniards throw young fish right into swim pool with sharks . Many don't survive , but those who do become stronger .
Just take a look @ Spain U-20: Mirotic, Sastre, Franch , Simeon - all those play major roles in ACB teams.
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