I definitely understand your point that most of these potential All-Europe Team players played significant amounts of time in European leagues before going to the NBA. Still, I think the USA is much better at understanding FIBA rules now than it was in, say, 2004, but that's probably because our core is so used to FIBA rules at this point. Future teams with newer players might be at a disadvantage there.Originally Posted by Chopin
However, I wonder if it's true that other NTs play more cohesive basketball. To give some examples: Team USA averaged 25.0 assists per game this Olympics, while Spain averaged 19.3 assists per game and Russia averaged 19.8 (just for fun, Nigeria averaged 10.6).
Next, Team USA had five players average at least 11 points per game, compared to just three in Russia and Spain. Team USA also only had three players play more than 20 minutes per game, while Spain had five and Russia had six.
I know these averages aren't a perfect measure of what you're talking about, but I thikn a lot of fans, including USA fans (like me), tended to underestimate the "cohesion" of Team USA simply because they play a very unusual and unpredictable style of basketball that is unusually balanced, with no clear "alpha dog" (just a tier of three alpha dog-like players) and a whole roster of players who step up in some games and step back in others. In your opinion, was the 2010 USA team, with Durant as the clear go-to guy, a more cohesive team? If you think so, I think it's just an illusion
So unless I don't have your definition of cohesion in mind, I think Team USA is simply so balanced that it strikes us as a strange form of basketball, which we assume to be less cohesive. But I'm not sure that's true
They played an uptempo game and used their speed to their advantage. So it's usually a high scoring game. But they played defense when they have to. Look at the final quarter against Spain, they made all necessary stops and made adjustment at the end of the game. Spain only scored 18 and 6 of them are giveaways at the end. But I agree with you, USA defense was nothing special but it's not bad. Look at Russia, they played the best defense in the tourney, but they could not put a clamp on Spain on the 2nd half when they need it the most.
If it is an NBA game, I don't think the Europe can beat Team USA in a best of 7. Defensive 3 second rule will make the lane wide open and Team USA is too fast on dribble penetration and 1 on 1. But in FIBA these are neutralized by playing full zone. Also in NBA rule, you can't leave like Howard 1 on 1 or Bynum, they gonna have to double them. But in FiBA, they can park in the painted and thus reducing post up guys like Howard and Bynum effectiveness. To me, it's quite a different a game. It's still basketball but international teams have better chance on FIBA game.
I like your team. The only thing I have to change is Ilyasova. Deng would actually be a better fit at SF.
What about an all world team?
What players could be added to the roster? Nash, Ginobili, Scola, Nene...
Deng doesn't have exprerience on an international level. Illyasova has had a lot of playing time, both with Turkey as well as in the Euroleague.
PAO EUROPEAN CHAMPION 1996 - 2000 - 2002 - 2007 - 2009 - 2011
Too much talent can work as a boomerang for the team chemistry. Actually this years team was almost as good as it gets. Twelve excelent players along with three superstars, Kobe, Lebron, Durant.
PAO EUROPEAN CHAMPION 1996 - 2000 - 2002 - 2007 - 2009 - 2011
more like 12 superstars
I agree this was an all star line up.
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Really someone mentioned Teodosic as PG?!
Spanoullis as starting SG????
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Sir Yao Ming, knows there's better players to counter Team USA specifically
and let's no do cross generations comparisons
"A nationality that easily feels wronged is an insecure one, and one that will be difficult to progress."-Anonymous
Parker-spanoulis-teo
thabo-rudy
Krilenko-gallinari
nowitzki-ilyasova
pau gasol-marc gasol-Omer asik
You forgot to add Ibrahim Kutlay and Turkcan + Turkoglu.
Anyway this game would be very exciting to watch, I don't know what roster of Euro should look like, but putting Ibaka to the roster is absurd (like previous commentator pointed):
If referees would be objective and game(s) would be played according to FIBA rules and regulations then EURO team have better chance to win game or game series. After several whistled travels and reaching fouls, which were ignored by refs in London (still USA deserved gold), USA team could not play usual game.
Both teams are really bad. Guys, you can't beat best American players if almost all of your players are of the same type/mentality - only generally worse in quality, sometimes slightly, sometimes drastically. So any European team who can give Dream Team a really tough competition (not only in one game but in the series) must be composed mostly of the players of different, non-NBA mentality, players who can surprise them, who are playing another type of basketball. Yes, most probably in order to be successful this hypothetical European Team must bulk up their roster with 2-3 European NBAers but only with the ones of the highest individual quality and some brains left. But you made up teams of Ilyasovas, Ibakas and Noahs which is really laughable. A team like Italy of early 2000s with all their shortcomings would be more successful than these ones just because they were playing traditional continental basketball and weren't relying on athleticism or run'n'gun acrobatics. You can beat Team USA in its best roster regularly only if you are completely different thing from them, if you are going to play 'their' type of basketball then you are doomed because they just have more quality and it's adapted to this type of basketball. You can't run faster than them but you can think faster than them. And this is the only way to win.
So my team would be something like this:
Milos Teodosic - Vassilis Spanoulis (no braindead Parker, with all his stupidity, 'I shall win it all by myself'-mentality and awkward shot-selection he is atrocious in internationall basketball; no Bricky, are you serious, he sucks for the last half of the decade continuously, turnover-machine who can't nail it when his life depends on it... what is the PPG he averaged in Barca - 5 or 6? and he is no Prigioni who can have 2 points in a game and still have efficiency of 20 with 10 assists and 7 steals; Shved... well, all of you just seen him in London, the guy has no brains at all which combined with the mediocre but visually flashy offensive prowess made him really suitable for NBA but not for this team)
Juan Carlos Navarro - Vitali Fridzon
Rudy Fernandez - Fernando San Emeterio - Andrei Kirilenko (the last one for his individual defense and physicality, still his stupidity always costs his teams more points than he give 'em with his great rebounding, steals and hustles)
Dirk Nowitzki - Viktor Khryapa - Joel Freeland/Milan Macvan (someone young, enregetic and with the good mid-distance shot)
Pau Gasol (he will play center and not PF in order to be the most effective for this team) - Sofoklis Schortzianitis - Timofei Mozgov (the last two are needed for the physical domination because one of the main American weaknesses these days is the lack of the offensively capable massive centers aside from Howard)
This team looks like a not very comfortable match-up for Americans. They still have more individual talent and winning mentality but this team can exploit their weak sides and is most effective in the type of the basketball non-convenient for US players. This team can vary the tactics pretty well - with Mozgov it can play more p'n'r-based style (and even with unorthodox Khryapa-Mozgov combination where the first takes the role of a point forward), with Sofo it can intimidate their opponents with the massiveness (is there such a word?) and power in the paint, both of its main SF (Rudy and San Eme) can play as SG if needed and they have a good combination of quickness to stay close to their opponent on defense and size to try to use it against smaller opponents in offense (and generally they are very well-rounded players), most of its big guys have decent to good three-point shot - so they can't be left alone on the arc, Teodosic, while he is a real psycho and hugely mentally unstable, has one of the brightest 'basketball brains' out there and is an epitome of the real European PG who could be a great floor general, and this team has enough individual offensive talent to compete with the best both in the backcourt and in the frontcourt. A very influential aspect of the possible success for this team would be a deep rotation (current Barca-style) with none of its players, Dirk and Pau included, playing more than 25-26 minutes per game.
Oh, now I realise that my team is composed from 13 players but let it be, it's too late to fix it 'cause the post is written from the perspective that all of them are in the roster.
I'm not sure that this team would most probably beat Americans (they are one tough opponent) but it looks much more ready for it than the team composed of Parker-Rubio-Shved-Ilyasova-Ibaka-Noah type of players.
This team would only be eventually a problem to USA in a very combined good day of Dirk and Pau... Otherwise in 10 games, 9 wins to USA. Spanoulis, Fridzon, San Emes, Freeland or Khryapa are just normal players on offense and incapable to match up on defense with the athleticism of the USA players. Didn't got your point...
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What's strange? Omer Asik Europe's top defensive(center) player? if you're playing a team Unites States like the athletic.You need a deterrent player at the under pot.
Taking Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Coach K away would make US beatable through many variations, or even just taking away half of those. But with those 3 players, I just don't see Europe matching their talent on either sides of the floor and unless we're talking of coaching malfunctioning, (I do believe quite many NBA coaches are overated) I don't think it's really worth discussing it at all.
Of offcourse, you had to include 4 Russian players. Fernando San Emeterio couldn't play in the final against USA and he never even was close being special in any spot of the game (to mention him among special European players).
Dirk, Khriapa and Macvan would make 4 position exreamely undersized and average in termps of athleticism, stenght and quickness and would rely only on Dirk's offensive (and overall) talent.
I can agree about the centers, but not Sofoklis Schortzianitis. The guys' physical domination would end up after 8-12 min. He never was elite big and never will.
BTW, it's funny how some Europeans treat Rubio
The flick from the future...
Nope, complete misunderstanding. Frankly speaking, I was very dubious about the inclusion of Dirk and Pau and obviously they must not overshadow their partners with selfish play as they used to do (especially the latter who makes the game too slow and predictable with his back-to-basket routine) and the game must not be centered around their offensive abilities. Let's say, they must not to take more than 10 shots per game each. The key to success is the reasonable team-play and unpredictability. The result of a bball game can not be predicted by measuring opponents on each position in such categories as vert leap, momentarily acceleration and jump shot accuracy. And that's the fact that is largely forgotten by NBA-oriented fans. This European team is much smarter and can play much more multi-dimensional, varied and multi-directed basketball than their US All-Stars opponents. The main advantage of the elite Euro players over the elite overseas ones is that the Europeans are generally smarter, better in tactical subtleties (if well-coached) and can explore completely different play-modes adopted to their opponents current play accents (while the latter are much more athletic, physical, higher-jumping, faster-running and better shooters and dribblers). And we must expose it in order to be competitive. That's why it's San Eme over Ilyasova, Khryapa over Ibaka, Fridzon over, say, Beno Udrih (who has a decent statistics in NBA but is as clever as neanderthal man) and Spanoulis over Parker. I repeat, you can win US best only if you are completely different from them because the other way around (if you are playing their style of bball with dumbfucks like Parker and Ibaka) they are just better in athleticism, speed, dribble and shooting abilities. About main weakness of this team: you are almost right as many of these players aren't too athletic or fast to cope up with LeBron and KD so the main vulnerability of this team would be individual defense against US leaders who could destroy almost any opponent 1-on-1 in their good day but it can be partially fixed with a good collective defense in a way Russian team (or CSKA) plays in its best moments with good mobility on defense, fast switches of the players who defend against the one with the ball, double-teaming in appropriate moments (which is useful especially against physically superior players who have bad passing skills and court vision and there are quite a some of that type among US top athletes) and intercepting the passing lanes which this team is very capable of. ok, individual defense would be a huge liability of any international team competing with the best US can offer. But do you really think that Parker, Shved/Rubio or Kleiza are better defenders than Fridzon, San Eme and Khryapa? Out of all non-included European NBAers the only ones who can play reasonable defense are Batum and Sefolosha (who is a great defender) but Thabo is totally mediocre and inactive on offense (let's say upgraded and NBA-adopted version of Voronov) which was proved by his recent European voyage and Batum while he is a solid well-rounded player is too inexperienced and lacks good understanding of the game, so Rudy and San Eme are just better as swingmen for this team. Luol Deng is also a good 1-on-1 defender but he most seemingly can't adapt to collective defense once it becomes more complicated and is a typical NBAish player on offense.
I think that most probable results in 10 games series are 5-5 or 6-4 (don't even know who's the favourite) but it also depends very much on the coaching aspects. And I also have strong feelings that the team of Straight Forward with Parker and Rubio as PG and Gasol bros as twin towers would be wiped out by the US team with something like Paul-Wade-James-Durant-Howard starting five in a really atrocious manner - something like 9-1 or 8-2.
I know it would hurt you a lot
It's fashionable to underestimate him
Dirk is an average defender but he is a 7-footer with really long hands and Macvan is definitely not a small guy (especially having in mind his physical stature) so to call this set of PFs 'extremely' undersized is a real overstatement. Only Khryapa is really undersized for this position but on offense he can play successfully far from the basket staying on the arch and feeding his teammates with beautiful passes or shooting the threes when needed and when he feels his touch. Defensively Khryapa is a beast, has fast hands and he is a very capable of defending against much more physically superior opponents. And once again, you can't beat USA with your supreme athleticism or speed of running across the floor so when you entitled to choose between average athlete with striking bball IQ like Khryapa and magnificent athlete but simultaneously a complete idiot like Ibaka you simply must choose the first.
Big Sofo is needed exactly for that - 10 or max 15 minutes of physical domination when he is fresh and can intimidate anyone in the paint and crush all his opponents with his might and physical power. He would have limited playing time but when he is in his top form he could be badly dangerous on offense for these 10-15 minutes.
Rotation on C must be something like Pau 15-20 minutes (he can get some more minutes as a 4 if the proper PFs are playing badly this day) - Sofo 10-12 minutes - Mozgov 10-15 minutes.
Why are you talking in the future tense? He already dominated international basketball for his last two years in Europe, don't you remember. Sometimes he even managed to prove himself as a more valuable player for Barca than such a monster of European bball as Victor Sada. Frankly speaking, it happened pretty sparsely but nevertheless that was a grandiose achievement.BTW, it's funny how some Europeans treat Rubio
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